A Confederate Navy after independence?

BlondieBC

Banned
Total US tariff revenues in 1860 were $53.2 million with a 15% tariff rate. With a 12.5% tariff, the Confederacy can expect to pull in about $13 million, not $25 million.

Total US exports in 1860 were about $243 million a year. The CSA's share of that would be about $170 million. A 10-12.5 percent export tax would yield between $17 million and $21 million in revenue.

Memminger's numbers are rather optimistic. Combining import tariffs, export duties, excise taxes, etc., the CS government can expect to pull in about $37 million, not $50 million. Combined with a massive federal debt and a bigger bureaucracy than the Union, the CSA will be hard pressed to afford anything.

Those are good numbers, so we are looking at maybe a 2 million to 5 million naval budget, probably closer to the low end. This very low budget, implies some fortified ports, an nice system of forts on the rivers built up over 20 years, and a few ocean going frigates. Now closer to the 1900, the debts might be paid off, and the budget might increase to where a few capital ships can be afforded.
 

frlmerrin

Banned
Total US tariff revenues in 1860 were $53.2 million with a 15% tariff rate. With a 12.5% tariff, the Confederacy can expect to pull in about $13 million, not $25 million.

Total US exports in 1860 were about $243 million a year. The CSA's share of that would be about $170 million. A 10-12.5 percent export tax would yield between $17 million and $21 million in revenue.

Memminger's numbers are rather optimistic. Combining import tariffs, export duties, excise taxes, etc., the CS government can expect to pull in about $37 million, not $50 million. Combined with a massive federal debt and a bigger bureaucracy than the Union, the CSA will be hard pressed to afford anything.

Accepting these numbers for the sake of the argument. I have several questions. I am deeply suspicious of them but until I can offer something better it would be unreasonable to dispute them.

1 On what basis do you make the claim Memminger was being optimistic when he was closer to the problem than we are and would have had to make GIS claims work. What is the evidence?
2 How much in the way of import duties and tariffs could be collected on USA goods particularly wheat entering the Confederate after a war.
3 in the event that the Confederacy retained control of the lower Mississippi as domestic waters how much revenue could be derived from taxes and duties on trans-shipments of USA goods to the Gulf of Mexico and on foreign goods going the otherway?
4 If manufactured goods from the USA were subject to the same import tariffs as British goods entering the Confederacy the USA's goods would not for the most part be able to compete, what would the impact of this on the northern economy be?
5 What is the breakdown by comodities of the $73m in nothern exports? Similarly what is the breakdown of the $170m in southern exports?
6 Much of the ante-bellum cotton was exported via New York in USA ships. New York was also the centre of brokerage. How do you think this will affect the USA economy? Clearly brokerage will move south and export will be via southern ports, possibly in British or native Confederate ships, possibly in reflected USA vessel. The effect will not be good.
 
The USA is the country that will have really bad debt problems because it will have similarly huge debts but it does not have much of an export economy to pay them off and taxing the domestic economy will slow growth.


Confederate per capita war debt was about 2.5 times as high as Union war debt.. The size of the Union export economy has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, since the Union did not tax exports.

If the country becomes a poor creditor it can expect much less investment and hence immigration.


Any suggestions on how the Confederacy would raise $1.5 billion in 6 months? Because that's how many treasury notes they issued and the notes were due 6 months after independence.
 
Confederate per capita war debt was about 2.5 times as high as Union war debt.. The size of the Union export economy has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, since the Union did not tax exports.

Not to mention that the Union industries will continue making money, because the North has many more things than cotton-using textile mills (which, unless the CSA wants to glut the British market, are still getting cotton from the same sources as OTL).
 
The Mormons are at least 30% foreign born probably more like 50% there is a modest chance they are revolting.

Period immigrants tended to be strongly pro-Union. The 1860 Census shows 29.2% of the Union was foreign born, compared to 5.7% for the Confederacy.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Any suggestions on how the Confederacy would raise $1.5 billion in 6 months? Because that's how many treasury notes they issued and the notes were due 6 months after independence.[/FONT][/COLOR]

The problem is they are about 5% bonds, so the CSA has to raise $75 million per year just to stay even. The planter class had back themselves into a real corner. The only way to pay for the war debt would be an extremely high tax on cotton exports. And defaulting to the UK and France has grave diplomatic risks. Much like the USA, if the CSA had any clue how expensive the war would be, they would have compromised.
 
The problem is they are about 5% bonds, so the CSA has to raise $75 million per year just to stay even. The planter class had back themselves into a real corner. The only way to pay for the war debt would be an extremely high tax on cotton exports. And defaulting to the UK and France has grave diplomatic risks. Much like the USA, if the CSA had any clue how expensive the war would be, they would have compromised.

At least the USA had a healthy economy that could be taxed, the CSA . . . doesn't. Even if its not damaged by the war, the rich are generally cash-poor and the poor are just that.

And counting worth in slaves just emphasizes that problem.
 
The Confederacy of the 1860's is a fairly rich state, and once a barrier (even a weak one) is up giving some protection of light industry from the northeastern states they will industrialise apace.

The Confederacy was fairly rich, but then they started the ACW. By 1863, they were suffering bread riots across the south. Massive deficit spending, overburdened infrastructure, price controls, and 10% of their work force joining the Union Army did not help the Confederate economy.

The Union blockade provided more protectionism for Confederate industry than their tariff ever would. Combine the end of the blockade with reduced demand for goods by the Confederate government and imported goods will strangle Confederate industry in the cradle.

Majewski has prettymuch destroyed the "American Heritage" idea of a threadbare CSA.

"Even a brief perusal of the 1850 or 1860 census suggested that the Republican economic critique rang true. The South had fallen dramatically behind the North (especially the Northeast) in manufacturing output, population growth, urbanization rates, inventive activity, and almost every other measure of development. Slaveholders living in older southern states such as Virginia and South Carolina had special reason to be concerned with the growing developmental divide. The failure of their states to industrialize created a pattern in which the oldest southern states were among the poorest in the nation, while the oldest northern states were among the richest" - John Majewski

"Virginia worked feverishly to modernize their economy through large investments in canals, railroads, and banks. Such efforts, however, largely failed. Virginia's transportation network remained highly localized with little integration; no intersectional trunk lines connected Virginia's cities to midwestern markets; and the manufacturing base remained small, especially in relation to northern states. The central problem was that Virginia's slave economy discouraged the development of a large commercial city that could provide investors, traffic, and passengers for major transportation projects" - John Majewski

"It was one thing to wish for improvements that would capture western trade; it was another to build them. As chapter 5 demonstrates, local financing made coherent networks cumbersome to organize, especially with no fewer than four cities seeking to build the central trunk line. Pitting Richmond, Norfolk, Petersburg, and Lynchburg in a battle for mercantile supremacy, these commercial rivalries prevented the legislature from focusing resources on a single trunk line. By 1860, a collection of uncompleted and unprofitable railroads and canals littered Virginia's landscape."- John Majewski
 
A nation built on states' rights is ideologically opposed by its very nature to a powerful central government.

The Confederacy was not bult on a foundation of States Rights. Many southern politicians paid lip service to States Rights, unless they were the rights of non-slaveholding states, but Confederacy dictated wages and prices, threatened the draft prevent strikes and force industries to complete contracts, funded internal improvements, confiscated civilian forearms, instituted internal passports, and tried to institute Prohibition. There were some true believers in the doctrine, but they were largely marginalized in the actual Confederacy.
 
There is mention upthread of export taxes. Did the confederate constitution allow them, as the us one on which it was based, didnt.

The Confederate Constitution (Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 6) changed the appropriate clause to "No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State, except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses."


If I'm reading that right it appears the Confederacy had no obligation to tax those exports equally. The Confederate government could decide Alabama would have a 40% export tariff, Virgina a 20% export tariff, and South Carolina none at all.



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The Confederate Constitution (Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 6) changed the appropriate clause to "No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State, except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses."


If I'm reading that right it appears the Confederacy had no obligation to tax those exports equally. The Confederate government could decide Alabama would have a 40% export tariff, Virgina a 20% export tariff, and South Carolina none at all.



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Thank you.
 
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