20% of Medieval Europeans pagan

[IMP CAES AVG]

It’s quite simple. Theodosius is defeated by the senatorial pagan party of Eugenius at the river Frigidus in 394, with the result that the Nicene Orthodoxy is never established as the official imperial religion, to the exclusion of all others. Without imperial patronage, Christianity will not become as dominant as it actually was, though it will remain the religion of a large segment of the population.

The notion that 4th century Graeco-Roman world was simply an empty religious void waiting to be filled by Christianity or some other new religion is largely erroneous. As early as the late 2nd century, the various strands of Graeco-Roman paganism were already beginning to coalesce into a single, unified, pantheon.

 

[Hapsburg]

Could Paganism have co-existed with the European Medieval catholic church for an extended period? I don't mean Vikings or peasants paying lip service to old gods--I mean the whole she-bang. Jupiter venerated in London, a cult of Set in Constantinople, etc. How might this come about?

No. It was on the decline before the middle ages. You'd have to go back to the Crisis of the Third Century to circumvent the situations that led the downfall of European paleopaganism. Or, at the latest, Julian the Apostate and that general period. When the Roman Empire was still around and Roman polytheism still thrived; and more importantly, as the post above indicated, the various Hellenistic religions were coalescing into a coherent faith with structure and doctrine.

By the middle ages, it was far too late.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Well, how about we try this- consider that Lithuania was the longest continuously pagan nation in Europe. What if we worked backwards from that to see what other nations might have survived akin to, or perhaps allied to, the Balts? What about the Wends?

 

[eschaton]

There's one option that no one seems to have considered: Slavery.

As the middle ages progressed, slavery was increasingly seen as only just if heathens (generally pagan slavs or Muslims) were the ones being enslaved.

Perhaps there is some economic shift in Europe which makes chattel slavery more economically justifiable. Instead of Europe shifting into serfdom, slavery becomes entrenched. In order to maintain a supply of slaves, the last pagan areas in the Baltic region are not conquered for several hundred years longer. More difficult, however, will be barring slaves, and the children of slaves, from becoming Christian. I'm not sure, given the nature of Christianity, we could see that in the middle ages.

 

[Mytogen]

Perhaps my first post on these forums should not be about something I know absolutely nothing about but here goes.

Someone mentioned the 'great religions' theory (of which I am a little sceptical, since the definition of great relgions seem to be simply the ones that are great now). What if the Mongol invasions brought enough buddhism along to either create some sort of pagan-buddhist syncretism og to 'innoculate' existing pagan polytheism in the same way some say it happened with hinduism.

This could either be used as the basis for maintaining pagan realms ( they might even have better trade relations with the remaining Golden Hordes etc.) or it could create a strong heresy of people who were both wotanic-buddhist and christian, similar to the way buddhism can coexist with christianity and shintoism.

Probably all very far fetched, but it was another suggesting that someone else might be able to turn into something useful.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The only remaining "Pagan" religions that existed at the time of Mongol expansion in the 12th and 13th centuries were ethnic Slavic and Baltic Polytheisms. They were bereft of their own scripture and learned priest caste, probably relied on oral transmission, so were out-phased by their secular rulers, whom were initially under pressure by Christian states to adopt their religion. The Mongols wanted to deal with highly urban states, such as those like China, the Muslim Sultanates and Emirates and the Christian kingdoms and prinicipalities of Europe.

If any European religion was to develop its own holy scripture, its own canon and dogma, it would have in some way or another imprinted itself on the native folklore of whatever region it came to.

Europe would have remained Pagan/Polytheistic if:

a) Constantine never rose to become Caesar, and the generally Hellenized religious culture of the Roman Empire continued to evolve under its own power.

or

b) Rome never became an Empire, and Europe in the north and west could have been dominated by an evolved Celtic Druidic religion, the Balkans and Russias could have followed something like an evolved Cult of Zalmoxis, and Hellenism could still be alive and well in Greece, Egypt, Anatolia and the Middle East.

 

[BigWillyG]

What would the effects have been of no Irish conversion?
I've read the Irish church did a lot of the work in Converting the Anglo-Saxons in England and various Continental pagans in Charlemanges time.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Well, couldn't Lithuania and any other nearby enclaves of paganism hold out if they either:

1. sought protection and collaborated with the Mongols,

2. were protected from Europe's attention due to either the Black Plague hitting the Christian nations or preoccupation with the Crusades against Muslims?

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

It's obvious: For the Church to accept other forms of religion peacefully, you need to - change the character of the Church.

I do not think you have to go back to the Constantine for that, I think Carolingian time might suffice. But that would have enormous consequences in other fields. Inside the Church, the Great Schism would not take place or be completely different. New religions might arise which did not even pop up in OTL (by syncretism and eclecticism, for instance). And: Most probably, Christianity would become a minority faith, though a large and influential one. No longer it would define Europe's character.

 

[abas]

Well, couldn't Lithuania and any other nearby enclaves of paganism hold out if they either:

1. sought protection and collaborated with the Mongols,

2. were protected from Europe's attention due to either the Black Plague hitting the Christian nations or preoccupation with the Crusades against Muslims?

But they come to power after Mongols faded out and rather successfully fought their successor state (Golden Horde).

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I doubt the Islamic Golden Horde is going to have much sympathy for the Pagan Lithuanians.

 

[Flocculencio]

India, anyone??

Monotheistic North, Polytheistic South?

Though, of course, I know little of Indian history, so I don't know how long this state of affairs has been going on. But the fact is, it can happen.

That's because the Muslims were always a relatively small minority.

 

[The Sandman]

Have the break between the Eastern and Western Empires include religion. The Eastern Empire goes full Christian, the West does not. If Spain, France and Italy remain pagan, or at least with Christianity as just one faith among the multitude, those regions are more than rich enough to support intra-pagan trade.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

The Submission timeline from SHWI. No Islam, but a religion formed in Scandinavia from pagan beliefs instead. An excerpt:

Submission (world religion)

Ragnar the Prophet, life of ... the major difficulty in trying to analyse the life of the historical Ragnar is the extent to which his actions have been mythologised by the early Norse Submissives. The _Traditions_ provide valuable clues, being compiled within the first few decades after his death, but much of the material suffers from the absence of verifiable detail concerning his early pre-separation life...

Ragnar was probably born between 30 and 25 BSE on the island of Bjakoy, very possibly in Tromso where he later built the Church of the Midnight Sun. He was almost certainly born in a wealthy family, wealthy by the standards of the island, poor by any other standard at the time. He may well have had some claim to nobility, for what such a claim would have been worth. From this rather bleak location at the very margins of civilisation he would found the world's most widely practised religion. It is well documented within the _Traditions_ that he was a merchant-trader as a young man, travelling quite substantial distances in order to sell furs acquired from trade with the Lapps. From his subsequent career we can know with some certainty that he visited Kaupang and Hedeby on numerous occasions, then blossoming from small hamlet settlements into trading towns (archaeological digs show the growth during this period, nevertheless these were still very small settlements). In these towns he made contacts that would prove useful later in life. He may also have travelled further afield. Some commentators suggest that he encountered monotheists of other religions in this voyages, Trinitarian or Jabarite Christians, or even some sect of one of minor religions now forgotten. It is impossible to say.

What is certain is that on a voyage north from his home, apparently to to buy walrus tusks from the hunter gathers who lived around the White Sea, he became lost and drifted for perhaps many weeks before finding land. It was during this 'separation' that he received his first revelation - he heard what he believed to be the voice of God. This revelation marks the beginnings of the standard calendar 0 SE - the year of Submission. On his return journey he continued to receive revelations, and became convinced of his divine mission to prophesise to his people, and to the world.

Ragnar was reportedly extremely handsome, charismatic and a good persuader - as a fur trader he would have learnt how to convince others. Soon after returning to Halogaland he convinced his wife and family, and the majority of the small community of the truth of his prophethood and revelation. He then set out to spread his message to the nearest centre of population and power, the small town of Trondheim in the Trondelag. He stayed in Trondheim a year, making many converts, but also many enemies, including the King Harald . His teachings during this period are recounted in the _Epistle to Norwegians_. This early material is strongly theological in nature, describing the nature of God, man, and his place in the universe. In winter 1 SE he was banished from Trondelag on pain of death, and many of the first Submissives were killed in fighting with the pagan Norse.

Thus began the best documented period of Ragnar's life, the exile in Denmark. In first Viborg, then throughout Jutland and Hedeby the new religion of Submission gained ground. The _Epistles to the Danes_ describe this phase of struggle. Much of the material within these Epistles concerns social and legal instruction, and codes of personal conduct. It is clear that it was here, in the more civilised southern marches of Scandinavia, that Ragnor intended to to build a society thoroughly intertwined with his religion, a holy community. Attempts to unify Denmark had been made within the previous century, and it is certain that Ragnor's message fell upon willing ears. Unlike in remote Norway, the Danish peoples were more inclined to form a unified community. Many may have already encountered some form of monotheistic thinking, and by providing a Norse religion Ragnar had appealed to both the religious impulses of a changing society and the political trend towards centralisation of power.

Nevertheless the conversion of Denmark took almost ten years. In 11 SE Ragnar led Danish soldiers into the Vestfold. In Kaupang he already had many allies, and soon he had conquered and brought all the lands up to Oslo into the House of Submission. His stunning victories, many without the shedding of blood, forced the other Kings and tribal leaders to acknowledge his power - yet there was still great resistance both from those who feared losing autonomy, and those who remained true to their pagan Gods. The period of exile ended with the battle of Lade, where King Harald's forces fell before army of Hakon of Senja, one of the earliest companions and an gifted fighter. King Harald was killed on the field of battle. Trondheim could offer no resistance, and Ragnar returned to Halogaland in triumph.

The later years of the Prophet's life were spent in the attempt to convert the peoples of Vastergotland. He also meticulously prepared for his death and the succession of the leadership of the community. The _Epistles to the Swedes_ recount much of this overtly political material, concerned with the organisation of the society rather than personal conduct. He fell ill and died in Gotland in the year 26 SE. His body was cremated and a tomb erected at Pavikan (the Prophet's Tomb, rebuilt in 511 SE)...

While it is certainly the case that the Scandinavian peoples and society were undergoing striking changes due to inherent economic and demographic forces, and thus proved fertile soil for the religion of Submission, there can be no doubt that the personality and abilities of Ragnar gave Submission its vitality, a vitality that from the outset gave some unity to the Norse (though the Wars of Apostasy still had to be fought), and later to Europe and the World.

Of course, it's not so much pagan as it is a Norse version of Islam:

Theology: Submission is strictly monotheist. There is only one God. God created the world and everything within it. God gives people their soul, and the freedom to act.

While souls are eternal, it is understood that there is no previous life for an individual - souls are created with each new person, and at death depart into an afterlife. Whether they succeed in being raised to Valhalla depends upon the character of the individual's soul. God gives man freedom to disobey his will, but for man to attain eternal life he must voluntarily submit to the will of God - hence Submission. Submission is seen as a constant form of behaviour, piety, as opposed to a single act. It requires constant self-correction, meditation and reflection. Upon death, if a person's soul is pure, it is elevated to Valhalla.

Early Submission had a cosmogony that was inherited in many ways from the pagan Norse past. The world was populated with supernatural entities, and beings such as the Fenris wolf, the threads of the Norns and giants all appear within the Epistles, though not, interestingly, in the _Revelations_. This absence certainly played a part in the Reformation of the 5th century, which amongst other things rejected all supernatural entities as being parables for ethical choices.

Many of these entities are seen as evil, or at least mischievous and detrimental to man. Nevertheless none have the status of Adversary that the devil has in Judaism or Christianity, perhaps inherited from earlier Zoroastrian religions. While the 'problem of evil' occurs in both Christian and Submissive theology, in Submission the root of evil is man's freedom. There is no notion of original sin, nor of a tempter that can stand against the power of God. While the centre of the doctrine of Submission is the redemption from error, in Submission that error is purely spiritual and internal to man, in direct opposition to the beliefs of the Manichean sects (such as the Pauliciens or Bogomils) who believe the Error lies in the material world. In fact in Norwegians 3:16 Ragnar explicitly states that all the natural world is unconditionally beautiful and unlimited in its fertility and potential - where man suffers, or finds ugliness, it is through his own failings. God has provided everything one could possibly desire, one only has to understand oneself, the world and one's place in it - to submit to God's will rather than to rebel against him, to achieve not simply happiness, but eternal salvation.

Submission is a hopeful religion - salvation is within the reach of every human being. It is perhaps a challenging religion in that a believer's salvation is through their own personal development, rather than the intercession of an outside agency. With its emphasis on personal spiritual growth, meditation and prayer Submission has been criticised by some Christians as being self-centred (similarities may perhaps be drawn with Buddhism). It is certainly difficult to see how secular humanism could have arisen from a society without a theology similar to Submission's. This self-centredness is countered by the strong social emphasis of Ragnar's message. Submission is a holistic religion that embraces all aspects of life. While it is purely an individual's spiritual growth that grants salvation, such growth is impossible in an unholy context. The society and laws of Submission provide the necessary environment for salvation. Thus one is not punished by God for failing to meet the ritual observances, rather failing to meet the ritual observances precludes the personal development needed to meet God's high standards for Valhalla.

The _Teachings_ ....Submission is a literate religion. Like Judaism and Christianity it has a holy book, the _Teachings_. For the most part the _Teachings_ were compiled within Ragnar's lifetime, or in the first few decades of the Viking age. This is in itself radically different from the Torah or New Testaments, which developed over many centuries. The _Teachings_ consist of three main parts with varying theological status.

The _Revelations_ were dictated to Olaf the Companion by Ragnor, and in orthodox Submission are considered to be the word of God, given in the Norse language. As such they are unalterable and eternal.

The three _Epistles_ are accounts of Ragnar's teachings, the first two by Olaf, the third by Styrbjorn. The _Epistle to the Norwegians_ is mostly cosmological in character, concerning the underlying teaching regarding the nature of God, man and the world. The _Epistle to the Danes_ concerns personal conduct, the practice of Submission both in society and towards God. The final _Epistle to the Swedes_ concerns organisation of society. These distinctions are not clear cut, however, and much of the material in the second and third Epistle is mutually contradictory. Modernist Submissives relegate the third Epistle to a secondary status, treating it as a parable, while Traditionalist Submissives consider all epistles to have almost the same status as the _Revelations_. An example is Danes 10:31. This verse was interpreted to mean that it is a person's duty to rebel and overthrow an unjust ruler, and was much debated during the second and third centuries, especially in light of Swedes 2:7 which commands absolute obedience to one's temporal ruler.

Least of the _Teachings_ are the _Traditions_ which are composed by a multitude of authors, recounting different episodes in both the life of the Prophet and the early community. Most of this material concerns the period of exile. Ragnar's early revelations and the separation are described in almost mythical terms, and perhaps for political reasons much of the later post-exile events are ignored.

The spread of the Submission by the written word mostly occurs after the death of the Prophet - though the writing of the _Teachings_ had little impact during his life, his experiences in the south had taught Ragnar the power of books, and he had insisted on its inscription. This holy commandment, together with the special theological nature of the _Revelations_ meant that the _Teachings_ remained in the Runic script long after the more literary societies of Europe had been assimilated, and in this way the long-stick script became a universal language of learning, much as latin had been in Christendom. Without such an insistence on the writing of the word of God by the Ragnar it is unlikely that the Runic script would have survived.

Practice: As a member of the House of Submission, it is a duty to uphold the five Pillars of Submission, which are considered anessential prerequisite to attaining salvation.

1. The bearing witness of the unity of God. The 'Profession' is made as a rite of passage - it marks one's entrance to the community.
2. Daily prayer & meditation.
3. The payment of a small percentage of wealth as tax - taxation is a fundamental tenant of Submission.
4. Observance of certain holy days.
5. The Pilgrimage, once in one's life if one can afford it, to the holy site of Tromso at the height of summer.

There are no dietary restrictions within Submission. Idolatary is strictly banned, and there are no artistic representations used in religious practice. Some interpretations of Submission extend this ban to all images, however the orthodox view allows art that is purely secular. How this is defined remains a matter of controversy.