AHC/WI: French Navy Receives the Verdun CVA and Suffren DDG

[Delta Force]

Inspired by this thread.

What if the French Navy had built the Verdun class fleet aircraft carrier and more Suffren class destroyers to escort them? What kind of impact would the fleet aircraft carriers have had on French hard and soft power during the Cold War and beyond? What would France have to give up for an aircraft carrier capability?

 

[Riain]

What aircraft would France put on this big carrier? If it is just Etenards and Crusaders then why bother?

 

[Archibald]

a navalised Mirage IV of course, although not quite the Mirage IV as we knew it with a tail hook.
the Mirage III-01 flew in 1956 and rapidly led to the true Mirage III prototypes and production series late 1958.

Meanwhile Dassault was dreaming of a French Phantom (or Hawker P.1121) I mean a larger Mirage III either with a single 25 000 Ibs turbojet (that never existed in the first place) or a pair of Atars.
But the AdA had no money for a French Phantom, so that Mirage IV evolved into the nuclear bomber that flew in June 1959.

The naval Mirage IV was studied in 1958 so mass and size wise it was somewhere between a Mirage III and a Mirage IV, in fact not far in size and wing area from the much later Rafale...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,837.msg6553.html#msg6553

 

[JudgeKing]

a navalised Mirage IV of course, although not quite the Mirage IV as we knew it with a tail hook.
the Mirage III-01 flew in 1956 and rapidly led to the true Mirage III prototypes and production series late 1958.

Meanwhile Dassault was dreaming of a French Phantom (or Hawker P.1121) I mean a larger Mirage III either with a single 25 000 Ibs turbojet (that never existed in the first place) or a pair of Atars.
But the AdA had no money for a French Phantom, so that Mirage IV evolved into the nuclear bomber that flew in June 1959.

The naval Mirage IV was studied in 1958 so mass and size wise it was somewhere between a Mirage III and a Mirage IV, in fact not far in size and wing area from the much later Rafale...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,837.msg6553.html#msg6553

There was also the proposed Bréguet 1120 Sirocco.

 

[Archibald]

Tout a fait. I use to poke that Breguet somewhat invented Dassault's Mirage F1 eight years in advance.
Unfortunately the French Navy prefered buying 42 Crusaders instead...

There's a great TL that remain to be made on the Breguet 1120 Sirocco, by the way.

Not only was that project a Mirage F1 before its time (I did this picture a while back - the two are stunningly similar, and there are excellent reasons for that, since both were designed as a mach 2 atar powered swept wings interceptor with side-mounted air intakes - how could they be differents ?? it's like Spitfire and Me 109 !)

It could also have been the basis of of a cooperative naval fighter between France and Great Britain. sounds familiar ?
The Jaguar started as the Breguet 121... Br.1210 in fact, so not too far down the legacy of the Sirocco.

Now imagine. The year is 1958. The Saunder Roe naval fighter is dead, but the RN still need an interceptor. The French Navy for its part is comissionning the Clemenceau in 1960 with... Etendard IV for fleet defence (no joking: that was the original plan before the Crusaders !).
OTL the Crusader deal was a difficult one; in fact the French Navy had to bargain the Crusaders against a Suffren class air defense frigate.

But what if the French Navy instead proposed the Breguet 1120 as a joint UK-France project, Jaguar-style ?

Not only would that cooperative effort kill the Jaguar down the line (why starting another Anglo-French combat aircraft in 1965 then ?)

Another sweet irony would be the fate of the Mirage F1.
The F1 was the 1968 end result of the Armée de l'Air failed VSTOL / STOL five-year massive effort that included VTOL, swept wings, and VG Mirages.

Quite inevitably had Breguet managed to sold the Sirocco to both Great Britain and the French Navy they would propose a land-based Sirocco as an alternative to the F1.

The great irony is that OTL Dassault bought Breguet in 1967 and inherited from the Jaguar... an aircraft they hated because they felt it threatened export sales of the F1, at least in the ground attack role. So Dassault actively sabotaged development of the Jaguar; that's the reason why the French Jaguar avionic suit was always pathetic when compared to the British one. Dassault kept the Jaguar as a rugged bomb truck with all the sophistication going into the Mirage F1s - see the South African or, even better, the Iraqi F1EQ that were far more powerful than even the French ones.

Oh, and there might a perfect fitting, anglo-french name for the Breguet 1120 (same as Jaguar or Concord(e) or Lynx): CYCLONE.

 

[Delta Force]

What aircraft would France put on this big carrier? If it is just Etenards and Crusaders then why bother?

It was intended as a nuclear strike carrier, so something like a navalized Mirage IV would be likely, in terms of French aircraft.

 

[Riain]

Is a delta wing suitable for carrier operations? IIUC the Mirage deltas required long runways for their high takeoff and landing speeds whereas many carrier aircraft are specifically designed to have docile landing characteristics.

Perhaps the Mirage F2/3/G/G4-8 would be the best bet.

 

[Delta Force]

Is a delta wing suitable for carrier operations? IIUC the Mirage deltas required long runways for their high takeoff and landing speeds whereas many carrier aircraft are specifically designed to have docile landing characteristics.

Perhaps the Mirage F2/3/G/G4-8 would be the best bet.

The Rafale M is a delta winged carrier aircraft, and the Charles de Gaulle is around the same size as the Verdun. There's nothing inherent in delta wing design that would seem to forbid it. Power to weight ratio and aircraft size and weight would seem to be a bigger issue, and the Mirage IV would have to improve in all those areas to operate from an aircraft carrier.

The various advanced Mirage concepts could see service on the aircraft carrier later on, but something would still be needed for the early to mid-1960s when the aircraft carriers would likely be entering service.

 

[Riain]

The Mirage 2000 and Rafale delta wings are very different beasts to the Mirage III/IV/V, they are dynamically unstable and employ fly by wore to solve that for starters, the Rafale in particular has canard foreplanes to provide lift at the front of the aircraft. The 60s Mirages couldn't fly the high AoA that the Mirage 2000 and Rafale can.

I thought the Verdun was proposed in 1958 and cancelled in 1961, so presumably it would be ordered in the 1959-61 timeframe and be ready by 1965-68. This isn't much earlier than the Mirage F2 could be ready, and the swing wing G could be ready by 1970 or so.

 

[Delta Force]

The Mirage 2000 and Rafale delta wings are very different beasts to the Mirage III/IV/V, they are dynamically unstable and employ fly by wore to solve that for starters, the Rafale in particular has canard foreplanes to provide lift at the front of the aircraft. The 60s Mirages couldn't fly the high AoA that the Mirage 2000 and Rafale can.

That's true. Having read a bit more about the Mirage IV, it seems that the extreme nose up attitude required for landing would be a major problem on carrier approach and could lead to problems similar to those encountered by the F-111B.

I thought the Verdun was proposed in 1958 and cancelled in 1961, so presumably it would be ordered in the 1959-61 timeframe and be ready by 1965-68. This isn't much earlier than the Mirage F2 could be ready, and the swing wing G could be ready by 1970 or so.

That seems about right. I'm not sure if the French would go with the F2 though, as it uses the TF30. It's not so much the issues with the engine design itself (for an attack aircraft, they aren't as crucial) as much as the fact that France preferred not to rely on foreign technology for its nuclear deterrent. Even with Snecma license producing the engines, I think it might be a political issue. A Mirage G arrangement with two Atar or M53 engines might be more acceptable (the Mirage F2 and G shared fuselages).

 

[Delta Force]

The service entry date for the aircraft carrier would be important for determining what type of nuclear weapon it would be expected to deploy, and thus what type of performance it would need to have. If designed to use the AN-11 it would probably have to be a specialized design, but if designed to use the AN-22 then attack, interceptor, and fighter aircraft could probably be expected to carry it.

 

[Riain]

Given that the french will only get one of those big carriers perhaps their best bet would be a squadron of buccaneers. They bought the crusader so they do import when it suits them.

 

[Jukra]

Given that the french will only get one of those big carriers perhaps their best bet would be a squadron of buccaneers. They bought the crusader so they do import when it suits them.

Buccaneer would suit the role perfectly, only the NIH might cancel this.

 

[Delta Force]

What about the various USN attack aircraft? The A-4 Skyhawk, A-5 Vigilante, A-6 Intruder, and A-7 Corsair would have all be available for purchase or from USN stocks. If it's only an interim aircraft until a French aircraft can take over the role, it could cause them to lean more towards the Skyhawk or Vigilante, especially since there would have been surplus aircraft available from the USN.

A French purchase of the F-4 Phantom FG.1 might be an option too, but it's not really optimized for the conventional and nuclear strike role like the other aircraft and has a shorter range.

 

[Riain]

There's no benefit in getting the A4 over a French aircraft and the A5 was pretty much a failure in its primary role, which leaves the A6 and A7, both of which would be suitable if the ship can handle them.

However, considering the French didn't proceed with the Mirage F2 because of the US engine I think they would prefer to buy British. This would fit in well with the various joint projects of the era such as the Jaguar strike-trainer and Puma and Gazelle helicopter projects.

 

[Delta Force]

What about an earlier Mirage F1?

 

[Archibald]

The Br.1120 is just that

Folks; the concept of a nuclear strike carrier rapidly fell by the wayside when compared with nuclear submarine. There was no way in hell a Verdun would have been build with only this mission in mind.
As for the Clemenceaus they are too small for everything heavier than 17 tons, either an A-7 Corsair or stripped down Phantom.
It's just like the USN transitionning nuclear strike from the Skywarriors / Vigilante bomber squadrons to the Polaris subs.
The Aeronavale was heavily influenced by the USN at the time, even daydreaming of subsonic long rage interceptors like the aborted F6D Missileer; Breguet (once again) had a project of the kind on the drawing board. The Aeronavale called that DAFNE but it didn't go very far.
The other limitation is, obviously, budget. The Aeronavale never was the USN for sure.

For the aeronavale there's nuclear strike and nuclear strike. When boomers become top priority early in the 60's, nuclear air strike was relegated to AN-52 gravity bomb strapped to Etendard IV.

 

[Delta Force]

The Aeronavale was heavily influenced by the USN at the time, even daydreaming of subsonic long rage interceptors like the aborted F6D Missileer; Breguet (once again) had a project of the kind on the drawing board. The Aeronavale called that DAFNE but it didn't go very far.
The other limitation is, obviously, budget. The Aeronavale never was the USN for sure.

For the aeronavale there's nuclear strike and nuclear strike. When boomers become top priority early in the 60's, nuclear air strike was relegated to AN-52 gravity bomb strapped to Etendard IV.

That would seem to be the case, because the mission for the Verdun makes it seem like a smaller United States class aircraft carrier.

 

[Riain]

.....Folks; the concept of a nuclear strike carrier rapidly fell by the wayside when compared with nuclear submarine. There was no way in hell a Verdun would have been build with only this mission in mind.
As for the Clemenceaus they are too small for everything heavier than 17 tons, either an A-7 Corsair or stripped down Phantom. ...............

Nuclear strike wouldn't stand the test of time, but the Verdun would be verging on the CVA01 for size and capability and would offer France the chance to operate all-weather, bleeding-edge performance aircraft such as the Buccaneer and Phantom or something French like the Mirage G8. This is miles better than Etendards and Crusaders, which are basically lighter aircraft suitable for day fighting.

 

[Delta Force]

Nuclear strike wouldn't stand the test of time, but the Verdun would be verging on the CVA01 for size and capability and would offer France the chance to operate all-weather, bleeding-edge performance aircraft such as the Buccaneer and Phantom or something French like the Mirage G8. This is miles better than Etendards and Crusaders, which are basically lighter aircraft suitable for day fighting.

I wonder if the French could afford a pair of Verdun class aircraft carriers, so they wouldn't have an availability gap (or at least not as large one) during overhauls, modernizations, and repairs?