Deleted member 1487
I already started a similar thread to this a while back:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=245178&highlight=fw187
Based on some new information I've come across in another thread on another forum, I decided to raise it again, because I find the subject pretty interesting.
Here is the thread I started:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-187-could-have-been-german-p-51-a-38757.html
The result was a chart that I've attached below showing the speeds of the actually tested Db601 version of the two seater Fw187 with normal radiators (no surface evaporative cooling) and full armament, munitions, and armor. That is it was tested as a pre-production model with Db601 engines, rather than the OTL Jumo 210s, which were much less powerful. The data was compiled from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Fw...EEM_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382217089&sr=1-5
Basically it includes all of the extensive testing data from Focke-Wulf about the Fw187 type with a bunch of different engines in combat layout (i.e. not just for speed records or show trials to get it green lit for production).
If it had been equipped with the DB601A engines it had been originally designed for, instead of the Jumo 210 it was given, records show that the pre-production model with full fuel, ammo, armor, and armament (not to mention two crew in the modified 'destroyer' version, rather than the single seat fighter version it was designed as) that its top speed would have been 380-385mph with 950 miles range (with 1300 liter internal fuel). That's nearly 30 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk. II and 45 mph faster than the Hurricane Mk. II.
Without being modified to include an extra crew member, which increased the weight, changed the cockpit, and compromised the design a bit, the base top speed would have been around 390mph and 1000 miles range for the single seat fighter version. That is with all of the armor and armament of the combat version. Its firepower was the same as the 1941 Bf110 too.
So, assuming that the Bf110 is not produced as per OTL, but instead the Fw187 enters production as a single seat air superiority fighter/long range escort /interceptor/bomber destroyer, it would have been ready for the Battle of Britain and probably even in combat service as early the Norwegian Campaign. In fact I think that its reasonable to assume that there would have been three full Geschwader (Wings for english speakers) ready by July 1940. That means about 270 aircraft total with 90 aircraft per Geschwader. Assuming the standard 68% operational readiness level of the average Geschwader in August 1940, that gives us about 184 operational Fw187s for the BoB.
That's worse than OTL, where 289 Bf110s were operational:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-13
So what does this mean for the BoB?
IOTL the Luftwaffe lacked long range air support and was limited to what range the Me 109E had without drop tanks (they were only available in small numbers in September) and had to withdraw their Bf110s from battle about half way through on due to their vulnerability to the Spitfire and heavy losses; this left the LW seriously short of fighters and fighter pilots in the battle.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Britai...G0M_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382218132&sr=1-7
Of course the LW would lose the excellent Fighter-Bomber capabilities of the Bf110, which were developed during the BoB; of course the Fw187 was adapted to that role and could have filled it if needed...also the Me109E was able to operate in that role sufficiently too, so could operate in that role as needed.
Richard Overy raises the interesting point that throughout the BoB the LW fighter units were actually outnumbered by Fighter Command and as the battle went on the number of operational LW fighter pilots dropped proportionally to the RAF very quickly AND actually dropped relative to the number of operational LW fighter aircraft! IOTL the loss of the Bf110 to the battle meant that there were even less fighters and pilots available, which put even greater pressure on the already overburdened Me109 pilots.
So having the Fw187 in operation instead of the Bf110 meant that not only would the LW have an aircraft superior to the Spitfire by a significant margin, but also wouldn't have to have them escorted by the Me109s and wouldn't lose them as fighters for the battle when they were needed the most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#Battle_of_Britain
Before this point is raised, these could categorically not be used as close escort fighter, just as the Bf110 wasn't ordered to do so during the BoB IOTL; it would be used only as a 'free hunter' and a 'boom and zoomer' maximizing its speed, dive, and climb advantages (which were the very best at the time of any aircraft in the world in 1940, not to mention in the BoB). Its heavy firepower (as heavy as the OTL Bf110 in the BoB), long range, and high speed would essentially make it the equivalent of the P-38 against the Zero in the Pacific, or the P-51 over Europe in 1944. I imagine it would be used against the Spitfires exclusively and let the Me109s, with their advantage over the Hurricanes, tackle the slower Hurricanes.
So what would this mean to the fighting? Would the LW be able to keep its losses down during the battle and inflict heavy enough losses on the RAF to 'win'?
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=245178&highlight=fw187
Based on some new information I've come across in another thread on another forum, I decided to raise it again, because I find the subject pretty interesting.
Here is the thread I started:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-187-could-have-been-german-p-51-a-38757.html
The result was a chart that I've attached below showing the speeds of the actually tested Db601 version of the two seater Fw187 with normal radiators (no surface evaporative cooling) and full armament, munitions, and armor. That is it was tested as a pre-production model with Db601 engines, rather than the OTL Jumo 210s, which were much less powerful. The data was compiled from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Fw...EEM_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382217089&sr=1-5
Basically it includes all of the extensive testing data from Focke-Wulf about the Fw187 type with a bunch of different engines in combat layout (i.e. not just for speed records or show trials to get it green lit for production).
If it had been equipped with the DB601A engines it had been originally designed for, instead of the Jumo 210 it was given, records show that the pre-production model with full fuel, ammo, armor, and armament (not to mention two crew in the modified 'destroyer' version, rather than the single seat fighter version it was designed as) that its top speed would have been 380-385mph with 950 miles range (with 1300 liter internal fuel). That's nearly 30 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk. II and 45 mph faster than the Hurricane Mk. II.
Without being modified to include an extra crew member, which increased the weight, changed the cockpit, and compromised the design a bit, the base top speed would have been around 390mph and 1000 miles range for the single seat fighter version. That is with all of the armor and armament of the combat version. Its firepower was the same as the 1941 Bf110 too.
So, assuming that the Bf110 is not produced as per OTL, but instead the Fw187 enters production as a single seat air superiority fighter/long range escort /interceptor/bomber destroyer, it would have been ready for the Battle of Britain and probably even in combat service as early the Norwegian Campaign. In fact I think that its reasonable to assume that there would have been three full Geschwader (Wings for english speakers) ready by July 1940. That means about 270 aircraft total with 90 aircraft per Geschwader. Assuming the standard 68% operational readiness level of the average Geschwader in August 1940, that gives us about 184 operational Fw187s for the BoB.
That's worse than OTL, where 289 Bf110s were operational:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-13
So what does this mean for the BoB?
IOTL the Luftwaffe lacked long range air support and was limited to what range the Me 109E had without drop tanks (they were only available in small numbers in September) and had to withdraw their Bf110s from battle about half way through on due to their vulnerability to the Spitfire and heavy losses; this left the LW seriously short of fighters and fighter pilots in the battle.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Britai...G0M_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382218132&sr=1-7
Of course the LW would lose the excellent Fighter-Bomber capabilities of the Bf110, which were developed during the BoB; of course the Fw187 was adapted to that role and could have filled it if needed...also the Me109E was able to operate in that role sufficiently too, so could operate in that role as needed.
Richard Overy raises the interesting point that throughout the BoB the LW fighter units were actually outnumbered by Fighter Command and as the battle went on the number of operational LW fighter pilots dropped proportionally to the RAF very quickly AND actually dropped relative to the number of operational LW fighter aircraft! IOTL the loss of the Bf110 to the battle meant that there were even less fighters and pilots available, which put even greater pressure on the already overburdened Me109 pilots.
So having the Fw187 in operation instead of the Bf110 meant that not only would the LW have an aircraft superior to the Spitfire by a significant margin, but also wouldn't have to have them escorted by the Me109s and wouldn't lose them as fighters for the battle when they were needed the most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#Battle_of_Britain
The Battle of Britain revealed the Bf 110's fatal weaknesses as a daylight fighter against single-engine aircraft. A relatively large aircraft, it lacked the agility of the Hurricane and Spitfire and was easily seen. The World War I-era Bristol Fighter had done well with a rear gunner firing a rifle-caliber machine gun, but by World War II, this was insufficient to deter the eight-gun fighters facing the Bf 110. Its size and weight meant that it had high wing loading, which limited its maneuverability. Furthermore, although it had a higher top speed than contemporary RAF Hurricanes, it had poor acceleration. However, it was unique at the time as a long-range bomber escort, and did not have the problems of restricted range that hampered the Bf 109E. Although outclassed, it was still formidable as a high escort for bombers using the tactic of diving upon an enemy, delivering a long-range burst from its powerful forward-facing armament, then breaking contact to run for it.[26]
One of the engines from Hess's Bf 110 on display at the National Museum of Flight in East Lothian, Scotland.
Hermann Göring's nephew, Hans-Joachim Göring, was a pilot with III./Zerstörergeschwader 76, flying the Messerschmitt Bf 110. He was killed in action on 11 July 1940, when his Bf 110 was shot down by Hurricanes of No. 87 Squadron RAF. His aircraft crashed into Portland Harbour.[27]
The worst day of the battle for the Bf 110 was 15 August 1940, when nearly 30 Bf 110s were shot down, the equivalent of an entire Gruppe. Between 16–17 August, 23 more were lost.[28]
After the 18 August there was a marked reduction in the number of Zerstörer operations. Their seeming absence has often been equated with the simultaneous disappearance from the Battle of the Ju 87. But wereas the Ju 87 had to be withdrawn because it simply could not survive in the hostile environment over southern England in the late summer of 1940, the reason for the decrease in Bf 110 activity was much more mundane. Replacements were not keeping pace with losses. There were just not enough Zerstörer available.
—Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstörer Aces World War Two[29]
The last day of August proved to be a rare success for the Messerschmitt Bf 110. ZG 26 claimed 13 RAF fighters shot down, which "was not far off the mark", for three losses and five damaged. However, on 4 and 27 September, 15 Bf 110s were lost on each day.[30] The Luftwaffe had embarked on the battle with 237 serviceable Bf 110s. 223 were lost in the course of it.[31]
Before this point is raised, these could categorically not be used as close escort fighter, just as the Bf110 wasn't ordered to do so during the BoB IOTL; it would be used only as a 'free hunter' and a 'boom and zoomer' maximizing its speed, dive, and climb advantages (which were the very best at the time of any aircraft in the world in 1940, not to mention in the BoB). Its heavy firepower (as heavy as the OTL Bf110 in the BoB), long range, and high speed would essentially make it the equivalent of the P-38 against the Zero in the Pacific, or the P-51 over Europe in 1944. I imagine it would be used against the Spitfires exclusively and let the Me109s, with their advantage over the Hurricanes, tackle the slower Hurricanes.
So what would this mean to the fighting? Would the LW be able to keep its losses down during the battle and inflict heavy enough losses on the RAF to 'win'?