Balkanise Russia

I'm currently playing a game of Victoria 2 as Prussia. Russia won't stop picking on me despite my constantly whupping them. As a result in the late 19th century we've a independant Ukraine, Belarus, Crimea and Georga (can't be giving those Poles any ideas and I want the Baltics! :mad:).
This really got me thinking. Russia is actually a pretty multi-ethnic place. Especially earlier in the 20th century, before Russianisation had really took its toll.

So. A bit of a challenge: break up the Russian Empire as of 1900 (take a POD anywhere after this) into as many different countries as you can.
In particular I'm curious about the internal minorities in Russia. How many of those have the geography and numbers to make for a feasible state?
 
Russian Civil War for some reason causes total collapse of the Russian State and with ASBish means we get the following independent states:

Finland (larger than OTL)
Latvia
Lithuania
Estonia
Poland
Belarus (Polish puppet)
Kuban People's Republic
Don People's Republic
the Ukraine
People's Republic of the Crimea
Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus
Democratic Republic of Armenia
Azeri Republic
Georgia
Idel Ural State
Alash Orda (Kazachstan)
Emirate of Bukhara
Khanate of Khiva
Far Eastern Republic
Transbaikal State

and of course:
Russian Socialist Soviet Republic (Europe)
Republic of Russia (in Siberia)

All these states are based on separatist movements that did exist during the Russian Civil War.
 
Yeah this isn't far off from what already occurred in the fall of the soviet union ... add in a more successful isoamist movement in the Caucasus (maybe have al quaeda use that as more than a minor training ground and have them go all in given its proximity to afghanistan) and you have an independent checnya and dagestan .... you could have another islamic state along the volga as well ...
 
Yeah this isn't far off from what already occurred in the fall of the soviet union ... add in a more successful isoamist movement in the Caucasus (maybe have al quaeda use that as more than a minor training ground and have them go all in given its proximity to afghanistan) and you have an independent checnya and dagestan .... you could have another islamic state along the volga as well ...

I don't know about that. The fall of the USSR quite neatly just split off the different SSRs, it didn't really break Russia in anyway, the only place that came close (and failed) was Chechnya.
 
I don't know about that. The fall of the USSR quite neatly just split off the different SSRs, it didn't really break Russia in anyway, the only place that came close (and failed) was Chechnya.

Point well taken, though the largest ethnic groups did get independence with the breakup of USSR. So really we are no just trying to find ways for some peripheral areas of Russia proper to break away along ethnic lines. I really think the Caucasus are the only significant area of ethnic identity coupled with a strong independence streak (I could be totally wrong here) so the POD/alt history approach should probabkly focus there.

Altay and Tyva could break away along turkic ethnic lines as well I think ...
 
How about we take a page from China's warlord era and apply it to Russia? Russia balkanizes along military lines while the peripheries crumble off. The Russian warlords waste what IOTL were the Lenin and Stalin decades fighting each other, then Germany comes to introduce the "Russia Incident". You could have the Germans splitting up their conquests into myriad groups.
 
What about interference from outside? Japan put a fair bit of manpower into Siberia in the Civil War. Could it be enough to "puppetize"? Or could Japan add some & achieve that?
 
What about interference from outside? Japan put a fair bit of manpower into Siberia in the Civil War. Could it be enough to "puppetize"? Or could Japan add some & achieve that?

Japan alone isn't nearly enough; just occupying Primorye and Sakhalin practically bankrupted Japan, and those were only minor scraps.
 
Point well taken, though the largest ethnic groups did get independence with the breakup of USSR. So really we are no just trying to find ways for some peripheral areas of Russia proper to break away along ethnic lines. I really think the Caucasus are the only significant area of ethnic identity coupled with a strong independence streak (I could be totally wrong here) so the POD/alt history approach should probabkly focus there.

Altay and Tyva could break away along turkic ethnic lines as well I think ...

Nah, the USSR actually broke up almost exactly along the lines of all its constituent republics, the only time things really changed were when an area was contested between two or more former republics (the Nagorno-Karabakh, Ferghana Valley, etc.).

The problem with balkanizing other places is that while Russia is by no means a homogenous land, is that most places for all or most of their history have never known anything other than Russian rule. It's hard for a Siberian people who were conquered and Russified in say the 1600s to try and come up with an identity and national ideals that would be a change from the centuries of Russian rule (and subsequent cultural influence) that they have undergone.

And honestly, desires for separatism and autonomy are not always equivalent to desires for independence. A place like Altai, which you list as somewhere that has potential for independence, has a little over 200,000 people today, let alone back in the Russian Empire. It doesn't have the economic prospects or population to support independence. Sure it has minerals, but it needs Russian money and workers to staff the mines, and independence would forfeit all of that. Not to mention the relative remoteness of the territory makes it fairly easy for Russia to simply lock down everything of value and leave whoever is still rebelling out in the taiga to freeze.

As you mention however, the Caucasus is pretty much the trouble spot for Russia. When it comes to conquests made by the Russian Empire, the Caucasus and Central Asia were some of the last major places to enter the Russian sphere of influence, and in many ways, the process of properly integrating the Caucasus territories into the Russian nation is still an ongoing issue today. Dagestan, Chechnya, Circassia, etc. None of these are without their local separatists and opponents of Russian rule. Hell, Sochi on the Black Sea coast in the North Caucasus is going to host the Winter Olympics in 2014, something that local Circassian groups have objected to greatly, so in all likelihood, the Sochi Olympics are going to be a major acid test for not only Russia's ability to put together an international event.

My money's on them though, historically, Russia or states controlling Russia (in the case of the Soviet Union, which was NOT synonymous with Russia) have done a very good job with this sort of thing.

How about we take a page from China's warlord era and apply it to Russia? Russia balkanizes along military lines while the peripheries crumble off. The Russian warlords waste what IOTL were the Lenin and Stalin decades fighting each other, then Germany comes to introduce the "Russia Incident". You could have the Germans splitting up their conquests into myriad groups.

The problem was China was already in dire straits even before the warlord era, and had spent several decades under varying degrees of influence from foreign powers. Russia was effectively a developing great power and even despite its fairly poor showing in WWI was by no means the anemic state that China was.

Plus there is just a massive amount of territory in Eurasia for any potential invader to occupy, and it's unlikely that the Slavic Ukrainians or various other constituent peoples of the Russian Empire would be treated all that well by the Germans or anyone else (two world wars and a few interwar conflicts proved that pretty decisively).
 
The problem was China was already in dire straits even before the warlord era, and had spent several decades under varying degrees of influence from foreign powers. Russia was effectively a developing great power and even despite its fairly poor showing in WWI was by no means the anemic state that China was.

Plus there is just a massive amount of territory in Eurasia for any potential invader to occupy, and it's unlikely that the Slavic Ukrainians or various other constituent peoples of the Russian Empire would be treated all that well by the Germans or anyone else (two world wars and a few interwar conflicts proved that pretty decisively).

This.

You would have to have Russia already declining by the early 19th century. Hmm... is there any way to switch the positions of China and Russia so that China is the relatively strong centralised state and Russia is the one falling apart at the seams?
 
This.

You would have to have Russia already declining by the early 19th century. Hmm... is there any way to switch the positions of China and Russia so that China is the relatively strong centralised state and Russia is the one falling apart at the seams?

Unless Napoleon somehow succeeds in his invasion and smashes Russia completely, I don't really see many ways to break 19th century Russia, truth be told, I think the 19th century is too late to stop the rise of Russia as a regional power (before it got access to the Pacific, the Baltic and the Black Sea, Russia was pretty regional)

For the vast, vast majority of its history, China was a strong centralized state. If anything, this tradition of it was what allowed the Ming to completely close off China from the world and isolate itself from major technological and economic development to the point that it fell behind Europe as an innovator.

If you look at how history played out for the Russian Empire during the early 20th century, most indications were actually going pretty well for its prospects as a great power. It was industrializing at a pretty good pace, and even under terrible leadership (i.e. that of Nicholas II, who was a reluctant ruler yet one who was absolutely, unquestionably convinced that his kingship was handed to him by God himself) was a remarkably successful system. Sure there were some groups of people that the Empire never successfully assimilated (Poland and Chechnya being the big two), but otherwise the Russian Empire was a remarkably flexible system that proved itself to be excellent at co-opting local authorities and granting autonomy to local groups in exchange for their loyalty. The Cossack hosts, who until previously had basically been mercenary fighters who sold their services to the highest bidder, are perhaps the most prominent and early example of this sort of policy.

It just got embroiled in a terrible war during a crucial period of transition that went badly for the empire and dangerously exposed all the flaws inherent to a vulnerable system. Had WWI happened later, Russia would have been enormously more capable, with greatly expanded infrastructure, a larger Baltic fleet, and a more modernized army, it likely would have had a much better showing in the war.
 
I don't know about that. The fall of the USSR quite neatly just split off the different SSRs, it didn't really break Russia in anyway, the only place that came close (and failed) was Chechnya.

Wasn't there a really (rather legitimate) worry in the early '90s that a Russian Civil War might happen, though?
 
Well, in reality, there was a short civil war in 1993 september-october. 200-2000 people died. President+army fought against parliament+their supporters. But officially, its not called a civil war. Also, with the current decline of Putin's system, there's chance for a new, violent political crysis.
 
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