WI:Marijuana never got prohibited?

Let's suppose that the Mexican imigration to the US in the early 1900's was very smaller, and the mexicans never brought their 'filthy habits' with them, and also, the US, due economical reasons was against the ban of exportation of Indian Hemp in the International Opium Convention. Would weed have infiltrated itself into the American young white culture as it did after the 60's? Would it still be a taboo? The Drug War could have been avoided?

Having studied the issue of American cannabis prohibition for quite a while now, since before even I got into AH, I can say that I do know a fair bit, though I am still expanding my knowledge base as well.

Firstly, more recent research that I've done seems to indicate that some minor concern about cannabis may actually go back to the middle of the 19th Century, mainly centered in the New York area, though it was relatively limited, as it seems there was more pressing concern about opium and morphine at that time; Dr. Charles Whitebread, a Professor of Law at USC, pointed out that opium addiction had become particularly problematic with Civil War veterans, so much so, in fact, that it was sometimes called the "soldier's disease", though that's another story for another time. It wasn't until the turn of the 20th Century that marijuana came to fall into the crosshairs of prohibitionists.

One important thing to remember is that the very first Federal-level law concerning drugs actually had nothing to do with marijuana. The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 actually made us safer by putting regulations into place, such as requiring warning labels, and setting up a system of approval for items meant for human consumption, and, furthermore, actually did more to reduce drug addiction overall, particularly accidental addictions, as that was predominant cause of such in those days.

And even the Harrison Act of 1914, which did effectively ban opium, morphine, cocaine and related substances, wasn't technically an outright prohibition, believe it or not, but, rather, a tax(yes, you read that correctly): more specifically, a tax of $1,000, yes, $1k, for any non-medical use of cocaine and/or any of it's relatives.....and that's in 1914 dollars! Furthermore, this law made no mention of marijuana, hashish, or any other hallucinogenic substances. It did, however, inspire the later law which DID result in the cannabis ban; the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937. However, though, as some may already know, prohibition really started on the local and state levels.

The first states to outright ban cannabis on a statewide level were Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, and Montana. Guess what these particular states all had in common? Yes, they are all Western states, but there is one thing particular to these four; every single one of these states was seeing a significant influx of Latino workers, mostly from Mexico.
Yes, sadly, xenophobia and even outright racism played not just a major, but perhaps a KEY role in the proposition, and signing, of these laws in several parts of the country; Mexicans weren't quite the only scapegoats(blacks definitely were to an extent, as well, especially in the South), but the most notable ones by far.

With that said, however, I'd like to touch on an important point: many of my fellow Americans will probably remember all those anti-drug PSAs of the '70s, '80s and '90s, right? And the pan-to-the-egg stuff and the fears of MJ being a "gateway" to worse drugs? Well, believe it or not, the latter is actually older than television(apologies to TVTropes)! There was an exception to the rule: the majority of the laws passed in the Northeast were really more based on the fear of "substitution", as it was called then, then anything else.....none of these states had many Mexicans at all and even African-Americans weren't all that common outside of Harlem and a few other places in the Big Apple.

And then there's the strange case of Utah. Believe it or not, it was actually the Mormon church that got cannabis banned in this state. Around 1910 or so, an unusually large number of Mormons left Utah for northern Mexico, Sonora and Chihuahua in particular, motivated by a strong desire to convert as many people as possible to their religion. Though they didn't have a lot of luck in this regard, many did pick up a habit from the locals; marijuana smoking. And lots of it. Many traditionalist Mormons, once they realized what had happened, were horrified. Just a year later, Utah passed it's own cannabis banning law.

State after state followed, until by 1930, 27 states altogether banned the drug, all the while being assisted by yellow journalism from the likes of W.R. Hearst, et al.....But the coup de grace came in 1937 with the aforementioned Marihuana Tax Act.

What some may not realize is that there were quite a few people with a vested interest in getting not just cannabis, but even hemp in general, banned. Many probably do recognize the pharma and chemical industries(companies like DuPont, Dow, etc.) as being amongst the key supporters of such, but the timber, alcohol and tobacco industries played their own role as wells, and there may be others, too, which I haven't covered.

In any case, there was hardly any real debate, and there were even a few instances of outright dishonesty by prohibitionists; one person even claimed that the American Medical Association supported prohibition, when in fact, said organization was actually quite skeptical of such; ironically, they were later deried by the members of the Committee.



I think this would require the industrial use of hemp being more widespread, since tobacco would still be strongly agaibst the competition.

I think that weed will be treated just like cigarettes are IOTL. The drug that many young people would go crazy for would instead be cocaine (or maybe even heroin or acid) and there would be legalization battles over it just like there are over weed ITTL.

Naw, Phillips and the like would just buy them out and turn around and turn it into something they can sell.

I don't think it would ever have been that popular and might still be considered some ethnic "food" (you know what I mean). The only reason hippies got into it was because it was forbidden and they seem to do things for no better reason than that. Without it being outlawed, I don't think marijauna would have ever been that popular. Even if it was somewhat popular, the tobacco giants would have bought into it and would have giant lawsuits slapped on them when the sue-happy smokers went after them.
[/QUOTE]

It really depends on the situation, TBH. I can possibly see some smaller, enterprising companies, especially Northern ones, trying their hand at selling marijuana; this is especially doable if you can at least partly butterfly the fears of "substitution"(which certainly isn't all that hard, TBH.).

Southern companies, however, are going to be a different matter, sadly; no matter how you slice it, no Southern tobacco baron who has any business sense is going to want to risk raising the ire of high society and reactionaries for selling this "brown man's" drug, even if they could afford to do so, and smaller companies probably couldn't afford to gamble at all, regardless. If there's going to be any cannabis selling in the South, the vast majority of it would almost certainly come from local farmers or small co-ops(there might be an exception for the major cities, though, especially port towns like New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston, Norfolk, etc.).

And in both cases, there's going to be a potential major problem: due to the fact that marijuana has virtually NONE of the health risks that tobacco does, there is a very real risk of very significant profit losses from people switching from tobacco to cannabis, or not buying tobacco, period, for companies, or people, that have tried to grow both plants, at least in the long term, if not the short term as well.

And then, there's the Western states, where pretty much anything could happen, depending on the POD and such.

There's actually a major book out arguing that the origins of Marijuana prohibition lie not in the United States, but in Mexico, particularly in the aftermath and ideals of the 1911 Revolution.

I've heard about it. There seems to be some good information, but the author's claim that American marijuana prohibition's origins actually lay in Mexico are, at best, dubious, TBH.

The conspiracy version is DuPont Corporation financed the "Killer Weed" campaign because they feared hemp fibre would be cheaper than their synthetic fibers and leave their investment in new production facilities for rayon or whatever unprofitable.

Though, unfortunately, there IS some truth to that. DuPont was indeed supportive of cannabis prohibition, mainly due to the fact that it was developing a huge variety of artificial substances, not just the fibers you mentioned, but plenty of others.

Here's just one link: It's mainly a general overview, though it does touch on the Hearst-DuPont connection.

http://washington-drug-defense.com/REEFER_MADNESS

And here's some sources for the other stuff, by the way:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/taxact/taxact.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/vlr/vlr4.htm
 
What some may not realize is that there were quite a few people with a vested interest in getting not just cannabis, but even hemp in general, banned. Many probably do recognize the pharma and chemical industries(companies like DuPont, Dow, etc.) as being amongst the key supporters of such, but the timber, alcohol and tobacco industries played their own role as wells, and there may be others, too, which I haven't covered.


Though, unfortunately, there IS some truth to that. DuPont was indeed supportive of cannabis prohibition, mainly due to the fact that it was developing a huge variety of artificial substances, not just the fibers you mentioned, but plenty of others.

Here's just one link: It's mainly a general overview, though it does touch on the Hearst-DuPont connection.

http://washington-drug-defense.com/REEFER_MADNESS

And here's some sources for the other stuff, by the way:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/taxact/taxact.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/vlr/vlr4.htm

Interesting, so this is more than the rantings of my undergrad classmates of the 1970s. These days they carry on about Monsanto and Kraft Foods crushing the life out of local organic food co ops, which with my age and experience am a bit more inclined to believe.
 
Interesting, so this is more than the rantings of my undergrad classmates of the 1970s. These days they carry on about Monsanto and Kraft Foods crushing the life out of local organic food co ops, which with my age and experience am a bit more inclined to believe.

Yeah. TBH, there definitely is some not-so-good info floating around, but all of what I've posted checks out as genuine from what I've seen. :cool:
 
maybe something like this would happen:

malc.jpg
 
maybe something like this would happen:


It's a bit of a stretch, TBH, but as I pointed out earlier, it could certainly be tried; especially in the case of Northern companies like Phil Morris, a New York-based conglomerate(and one which was a tad progressive in it's early years in some respects).....I'm just not sure it would be too terribly successful, though. (no offense, btw, it IS kind of an interesting thing to consider).
 
CaliBoy1990 said:
there is one thing particular to these four; every single one of these states was seeing a significant influx of Latino workers, mostly from Mexico.

Yes, sadly, xenophobia and even outright racism played not just a major, but perhaps a KEY role in the proposition, and signing, of these laws
It did, indeed. Not only that, tho, it was key in Prohibition more broadly: the target initially was immigrant Germans & their beer. Ultimately, grass got nailed & alcohol became legal again because of the Mafia crime wave & the recognition too many Establishment types drank; none used MJ...:rolleyes:

This remains a major reason why MJ's still illegal.
 
It did, indeed. Not only that, tho, it was key in Prohibition more broadly: the target initially was immigrant Germans & their beer. Ultimately, grass got nailed & alcohol became legal again because of the Mafia crime wave & the recognition too many Establishment types drank; none used MJ...:rolleyes:

This remains a major reason why MJ's still illegal.

Very true. Very true. :(
 
What some may not realize is that there were quite a few people with a vested interest in getting not just cannabis, but even hemp in general, banned. Many probably do recognize the pharma and chemical industries(companies like DuPont, Dow, etc.) as being amongst the key supporters of such, but the timber, alcohol and tobacco industries played their own role as wells, and there may be others, too, which I haven't covered.

It is horrible how the industrial interests(With the help of some corrupted journalists) will always prevail over the popular ones in our so called democracy.
 
Even if it's not made illegal, I think that the effects will still lead to a stigmatizaton a la cigarettes.

Though, on the other hand, marijauna really does have medical applications, especially as a painkiller, so it could easily become a prescription drug or something like that.

Lyndon Johnson lied constantly, almost compulsively, and his heart health was just one of the many topics he enjoyed using.

He didn't just lie about it to the press, he lied to his closest Senate associates, he lied to Bobby Baker, he lied to many of his would-be supporters for his 1960 Presidential run fatally wounding whatever chance he had. He may well have believed it himself; Johnson had a way of convincing himself of his own bullshit, as a vital step in convincing others.

He got embarrassed in the New Hampshire primary, his campaign internals showed him getting beat in the upcoming Wisconsin, and his arch-nemesis Bobby Kennedy had just jumped in the race. The idea of losing reelection was probably horrifying to LBJ; losing the nomination to RFK, unthinkable. So he did what he always did - whatever he thought was best for Lyndon Johnson, and then he came up with a reason (multiple reasons, over his remaining years) to justify it.

To be completely fair, that sounds more like self-delusion than compulsive lying.
 
Even if it's not made illegal, I think that the effects will still lead to a stigmatizaton a la cigarettes.

Especially in regions where it may be particularly negatively associated with Latinos, Blacks, Native Americans, or whatever minority least favored in the eyes of society, like opium was with Chinese in California IOTL. :(

Though, on the other hand, marijauna really does have medical applications, especially as a painkiller, so it could easily become a prescription drug or something like that.

It actually kinda was in some ways. And may be so again once re-legalization takes off. :D
 
If we never banned cannabis, there would be a booming hemp fiber industry in the USA. Not only would the US become a world leader in the manufacture of hemp fiber clothing, but it's likely that by the late 1970's hemp fiber take the place of carbon fiber for strong, light structural components for motor vehicles (imagine today's cars but 300 to 500 pounds lighter).
 
Just think of this, Hemp was predicted to become the first Billion dollar crop in the US by the USDA in the '20's (I believe). Really all it would feasibly take is for farmers to recognize the commercial benefits of hemp growing a few years sooner and Hearst and Anslinger "war on cannabis" doesn't take place, or is muted.

thing was that a majority of people didn't even know that marijuana was in fact cannabis/hemp till the act was past, and even then it took a massive propaganda campaign to stigmatize it to the extent that it taken 80 years to try and over come it (recent polls have shown a massive shift in support for weed decriminalization).

It's the only drug that is on Schedule 1 list of narcotics that doesn't fit any of the criteria
  • The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
  • The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.
  • There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision

Also, just the money saved on the massive amounts of law enforcement connected to weed would be insane, literally billions of dollars, not to mention there would be far less of an issue with drug cartels out of Mexico trying to smuggle it in. I've seen that after Pot was medicinally legalized in CA that the drug cartels lost close to 50% of the of their market.

With all that said, if didn't become criminalized, I really don't believe that pot smoking would have been as big of an issue as it has been, as it was used/seen as a anti-establishment symbol of the counter culture movement of the 60's and 70's. Would we have Marlboro Canabis next to the Marlboro Light 100's? eh...maybe but I doubt it would have the same appeal.
 
marl_d said:
just the money saved on the massive amounts of law enforcement connected to weed would be insane
Your dead bang right, & that's why it's never happening: too many drug warriors would be out of work. Worse still, there's too damn much money going into police departments from seizures. Not to mention it's way too easy to get promotions from racking up brain dead easy drug arrests.:rolleyes:
marl_d said:
I've seen that after Pot was medicinally legalized in CA that the drug cartels lost close to 50% of ...their market.
I'll wager it ends up more than that. Plus all the street crime associated with the artificially-inflated prices & the need to steal to support a habit. Plus a drastic reduction in violence. (Cigarette smugglers generally don't get in gunfights. Neither do convenience store owners get in turf wars.)

Plus, the taxes it could rake in is pretty hefty (judging by cigarettes).
 
this thread has been centered on the USA so far. MJ is illegal to varying degrees pretty much everywhere in the west, although not prosecuted very diligently in a lot of places. So, one question is, just why is this? What would it take to legalize it across the first world? To get pot legal in the USA, I'd think that it would first have to be legal everywhere else, so it wouldn't be unusual for America to legalize it...
 
Do other places have their own reasons for keeping it illegal besides U.S. pressure?

The thread also seems to be focused on smoking, if it's always been legal how popular will eating it be? And what impact could that have?
 
Dave Howery said:
To get pot legal in the USA, I'd think that it would first have to be legal everywhere else
From what I've seen of U.S. behavior, I'd say just the opposite. With the amount of U.S. economic clout (never mind political), she can more/less get her own way on it. Plus, it's been the U.S. putting the screws to countries to get cocaine & MJ made illegal to begin with, going back decades.
 
Top