AHC: Britain becomes analogue of Imperial Japan

[Elfwine]

And yet, it was still very prevalent, like in Namibia during the Herrero and Namaqua Genocide.

I think that while what Japan did in the Nanking Massacre was horrible, European Empires will have undoubtedly brushed whatever they were doing in the colonies under a table, some to a large extent.

It being prevalent despite efforts to stop it does not compare to efforts made to create a f--king institution (pun not intended) around it.

And European empires brushing what they did under the table doesn't excuse Japan or explain the world's response to its behavior.

And how did we get on the subject of the atrocities part of this, anyhow? Asking because we seem sort of stalled discussing it.

 

[mightfly]

The idea is learned flaws on top of personal flaws to create even worst ideology.

But any way we need to get back to topic or we'll be at this forever.

 

[Badshah]

It being prevalent despite efforts to stop it does not compare to efforts made to create a f--king institution (pun not intended) around it.

And European empires brushing what they did under the table doesn't excuse Japan or explain the world's response to its behavior.

And how did we get on the subject of the atrocities part of this, anyhow? Asking because we seem sort of stalled discussing it.

Firstly, I didn't say it excuses Japan, I'm saying that there is an influence coming from elsewhere as well. They, just, well, made it quicker and easier. (That felt awful saying....)

Secondly, I just saw mightfly's post, and decided to post something...the scenario proposed by OP, IMO doesn't really work.

 

[mightfly]

It being prevalent despite efforts to stop it does not compare to efforts made to create a f--king institution (pun not intended) around it.

And European empires brushing what they did under the table doesn't excuse Japan or explain the world's response to its behavior.

I like to think about it in a similar fashion to the black market of north korea while not a public institution it is very institutionalize in private.
No one says it out loud but everyone knows about it. How many slave owners neighbors knew the interracial child in the slave shacks were their neighbors sons and daughters. No one would of course say this out loud in public, ever heard of thomas jefferson's other family?

 

[Elfwine]

I like to think about it in a similar fashion to the black market of north korea while not a public institution it is very institutionalize in private.
No one says it out loud but everyone knows about it. How many slave owners neighbors knew the interracial child in the slave shacks were their neighbors sons and daughters. No one would of course say this out loud in public, ever heard of thomas jefferson's other family?

I like to think that the people I discuss things with are reasonable minded, but when you compare something that is not approved of or promoted with something that was . . .

Also, the Jefferson thing has been questioned. The most we seem to know is there was male Jefferson DNA, but Thomas wasn't the only possibility.

 

[mightfly]

Of course when it comes to public reaction i can only think about all those people who would say we would never do that but then do such things in private. The Japanese were exposed by modern journalism in a similar fashion to spain being exposed for its crimes against philippines and cuba before the spanish american war. That outrage americans felt for spanish actions was in the same era as the wounded knee massacre.

 

[Elfwine]

Of course when it comes to public reaction i can only think about all those people who would say we would never do that but then do such things in private. The Japanese were exposed by modern journalism in a similar fashion to spain being exposed for its crimes against philippines and cuba before the spanish american war. That outrage americans felt for spanish actions was in the same era as the wounded knee massacre.

And I can only think about how much effort it takes to treat it as if Japan was no worse than anyone else.

 

[mightfly]

I like to think that the people I discuss things with are reasonable minded, but when you compare something that is not approved of or promoted with something that was . . .

Also, the Jefferson thing has been questioned. The most we seem to know is there was male Jefferson DNA, but Thomas wasn't the only possibility.

Wow now you sound like a holocaust denier why so h811bent on proving the west innocent of influencing those they obviously influenced?

 

[Elfwine]

Wow now you sound like a holocaust denier why so h811bent on proving the west innocent of influencing those they obviously influenced?

Because Japan bears responsibility for its own actions, just as Europe does for its own.

Europe does not merit responsibility for Japan's actions.

 

[mightfly]

And I can only think about how much effort it takes to treat it as if Japan was no worse than anyone else.

Not much i study human history the world over. We are a very screwed up species. But at least we aren't Draka!

 

[Zuvarq]

Wow now you sound like a holocaust denier why so h811bent on proving the west innocent of influencing those they obviously influenced?

You're the one defending the actions of a member of the Axis.

 

[Elfwine]

Not much i study human history the world over. We are a very screwed up species. But at least we aren't Draka!

This from the person who put Henry VIII founding the Church of England in the same category as various atrocities from other ages.

Seriously, that sounds less like something a student of history would say any more like someone trying hard to paint Europe as a uniquely belligerent and nasty place with whatever comes to mind.

 

[mightfly]

Actually no the axis's actions were a terrible crime against humanity but i am a reasonable person and i just don't see the difference between slavery rape as a crime against humanity, war rape as a crime against humanity, forced prostitution, or pedofilia.

I would say the same about the holocaust and the native american genocide or the extermination of the tainos. Does it matter whether the reason for a people being wiped out being institutionalized or not?

I suppose you could argue one says the society is wrong while the other says the action is wrong but for the victims its just splitting hairs.

 

[Badshah]

This from the person who put Henry VIII founding the Church of England in the same category as various atrocities from other ages.

Seriously, that sounds less like something a student of history would say any more like someone trying hard to paint Europe as a uniquely belligerent and nasty place with whatever comes to mind.

I don't think he's trying to paint it as uniquely belligerent more so attempting to equate Europe and Japan: (ie. "we focus a lot on why Japan was bad, but let me point out why it isn't unique in that respect.")

Am I right?

 

[mightfly]

So Henry VIII action does not represent a ruler doing what he wants to get his way even at the cost of forcing a major shift in ideology on others?

Is that really that different than burning aztec books to force conversion to a new ideology so spain can rule them?

 

[Elfwine]

One is something the society is making a policy, the other is something happening despite policy - and is much more likely to be stopped.

Wounded Knee has casualties around 200: http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/wounded.htm

Awful? God yes. But as mass slaughter goes, not particularly ghastly, unfortunately.

And for purposes of judging one vs. another, that the dead are just as dead is kind of missing the problem.

So Henry VIII action does not represent a ruler doing what he wants to get his way even at the cost of forcing a major shift in ideology on others?

Is that really that different than burning aztec books to force conversion to a new ideology so spain can rule them?

YES!

Especially as Henry didn't force a major shift in ideology on others, just organization.

 

[Zuvarq]

I don't think he's trying to paint it as uniquely belligerent more so attempting to equate Europe and Japan: (ie. "we focus a lot on why Japan was bad, but let me point out why it isn't unique in that respect.")

Am I right?

But on this forum we all know that Europeans have done bad things.

And generally, Nazi atrocities are more well known than Japanese ones. As are colonial atrocities except the ones done by historical figures that are for some reason admired, like Columbus.

 

[mightfly]

I don't think he's trying to paint it as uniquely belligerent more so attempting to equate Europe and Japan: (ie. "we focus a lot on why Japan was bad, but let me point out why it isn't unique in that respect.")

Am I right?

YES! Thank You So Very Much!

 

[Elfwine]

I don't think he's trying to paint it as uniquely belligerent more so attempting to equate Europe and Japan: (ie. "we focus a lot on why Japan was bad, but let me point out why it isn't unique in that respect.")

Am I right?

Elfwine:

I'm not saying Japan was entirely unjustified in feeling itself unsafe, but the idea that the West was filled with treacherous violent bastards who were longing for the opportunity to rape and pillage is rather overstated.


Mightfly: Would you take that chance with your country people and daughters?


I would definitely say he's trying to do more than say "Japan wasn't unique" with statements like that.

 

[Badshah]

But on this forum we all know that Europeans have done bad things.

And generally, Nazi atrocities are more well known than Japanese ones. As are colonial atrocities except the ones done by historical figures that are for some reason admired, like Columbus.

We also have quite a large fanbase for some of them...like the British Empire.