Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Glen]

Well! I've begun reading this most interesting TL and I can already see why it has over 200 pages of comments. It's great. But when I get through the whole thing I'll be able to say it's really great.

Thank you for your patronage. We look forward greatly to hearing your comments after you finish your read of this timeline!

 

[Sovereign12]

There has been a lot of Britano-Latin-Caribbean-Southern cross-fertilization, both culturally and linguistically. There are more loan words in the Southron dialect of English than any other version (however, it actually isn't much more than the loan words seen in American English OTL - but TTL's American English has less loan words than OTL).

Perhaps more Russian loan words from when Russia held Alaska, and the fact that it is just over the Berings Sea. I would also think more French loan words, not just because of Quebec, but because the French may feel more comfortable moving there. Not in large droves obviously, since the French have Austrailian and NZ territory, but enough to keep new or new ways to use French words coming over from France itself. I would think the various Scandiniavian languages would add in new words to the US's English also.

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

actually, I at least don't see any reason for there being more russian loanwords in TTL's american english. proximity and colonial history have not brought an infusion of russian culture OTL, and I see no reason why that would be different here. if I recall correctly TTL america actually aquired alaska sooner, and even if you don't have to go through canada to reach the rest of the united states TTL, alaska is still a tiny outpost on the end of a long supply line, and so is the part of russia across the strait. additionally there is still a rather strong political divide between the liberal western united states, and isolated korsgaardist russia.

that said, I very much agree with you about the larger dose of french in this america's vernacular. I'm sure this has been mentioned quite often, but I would add that the presence of quebec in the union and the constitutional comminment to multilinguality probably strengthens the positipon of german speakers in america, or at least it seems like less of them might learn english. in fact if german is more prominent or widespread in this USA, and germans' westward migration patterns stay largely similar, there could one day be a couple of majority germanophone states in the northern plains region (montana, dakotas, around there).

also, on the recent subject of accents it seems that with the migration coming down from quebec, and what I at least remember as being rather widespread mixing with anglophones, there might be a regional accent centered on ontario and eastern huron, with which we are unfamiliar in OTL. gitchigumee probably has a unique accent as well.

 

[Glen]

Under what conditions does the USA have access to the southern Mississippi and the port of New Orleans? Or has that already been answered?

The boildown of the Peace of Paris ITTL contains the phrase
"Great Britain and the United States were each to be given perpetual access to the Mississippi River".

Yep, naraht found it correctly.

While this doesn't say anything about the right to easily transfer cargos (and access to warehouses) in New Orleans, and I can see the UK perhaps wanting to put observers on the USA Riverboats,

Not on the Riverboats, but American riverboats that land in the British South do have to go through a 'customs' inspection - a bit more formal process in the big cities on the Big Muddy, more informal for the little port towns on Old Man River. Basically any town official can do a cursory inspection for 'contraband' (at this stage in history that is very little).

given the century of peace between the US and UK ITTL, my guess is that the rules aren't too heavy. Besides, that deal gives British shipping equal access to places like St. Louis. I would *expect* that the agreements on the Mississippi to be more similar to those of the OTL St. Lawrence Seaway/Great Lakes

Yep, this.

than the OTL Colorado river (which is definitely not of equals).

Agree - not this.

The 1830s Rebellion probably did a number of USA access to New Orleans, but apparently that was not viewed as something for the USA to get particularly annoyed at London over...

Actually they had relatively free access as neither side wanted to antagonize the US into coming in on the other's side. There were inevitable 'incidents' (especially dangerous was during the Siege of New Orleans) but nothing too terrible.

 

[Arrix85]

Finally managed to catch up with your TL.

I particularly liked how your set up avoids the ACW (yes, there was the Slavers' rebellion, but It felt more like a rebellion and less like a civil war) which is in my opinion one of the most blown out-of-proportion wars in history (especially in AH).

Other points for the integration of "Indians" and metis into the US and DSA (which by the way sounds awesome in the cultural department and it's poised to be a significant player in the international stage).

Good portrait of the Liberal and Global wars (also points for the formation of a united liberal Germany, not led by Prussia and for keeping the OTL's League of three emperors together in the wars, which makes much more sense), I wonder if there's gonna a be a follow-up...

If I can make a criticism, I noticed a couple of updates where it was written "after a while there a fatigue after two mandates of Federalist in charge and the party lost the following election..." Why there was such a fatigue? OTL's republican hold the highest office for a very long while and there was no such fatigue.

I'm all for the fatigue, but a cause for it would be nice.

 

[Beedok]

actually, I at least don't see any reason for there being more russian loanwords in TTL's american english. proximity and colonial history have not brought an infusion of russian culture OTL, and I see no reason why that would be different here. if I recall correctly TTL america actually aquired alaska sooner, and even if you don't have to go through canada to reach the rest of the united states TTL, alaska is still a tiny outpost on the end of a long supply line, and so is the part of russia across the strait. additionally there is still a rather strong political divide between the liberal western united states, and isolated korsgaardist russia.

that said, I very much agree with you about the larger dose of french in this america's vernacular. I'm sure this has been mentioned quite often, but I would add that the presence of quebec in the union and the constitutional comminment to multilinguality probably strengthens the positipon of german speakers in america, or at least it seems like less of them might learn english. in fact if german is more prominent or widespread in this USA, and germans' westward migration patterns stay largely similar, there could one day be a couple of majority germanophone states in the northern plains region (montana, dakotas, around there).

also, on the recent subject of accents it seems that with the migration coming down from quebec, and what I at least remember as being rather widespread mixing with anglophones, there might be a regional accent centered on ontario and eastern huron, with which we are unfamiliar in OTL. gitchigumee probably has a unique accent as well.

Canada is pretty slavic OTL (mostly Ukrainians and Poles, but plenty of Russians too), so maybe TTL's USA got a similar ratio of Slavic immigration?

 

[naraht]

Not on the Riverboats, but American riverboats that land in the British South do have to go through a 'customs' inspection - a bit more formal process in the big cities on the Big Muddy, more informal for the little port towns on Old Man River. Basically any town official can do a cursory inspection for 'contraband' (at this stage in history that is very little).



Actually they had relatively free access as neither side wanted to antagonize the US into coming in on the other's side. There were inevitable 'incidents' (especially dangerous was during the Siege of New Orleans) but nothing too terrible.

Customs inspections are likely to get much more severe if the USA and DSA ever have significantly different laws on something like Alcohol or Marijuana. I presume the customs inspection is more or less mirrored.

I agree, the USA could have completely tipped the balance in the fights in the 1830s

Two questions in terms of the interpretation of the "free access". First, is the movement of the mouth toward the Atchafalaya likely to cause any friction based on what actually in the Mississippi? Based on the treaty, the DSA could create a transshipment point at the mouth of the Atchafalya which would give an advantage to DSA shippers for shipments west along the gulf coast.

Sort of conversely, does the DSA/Britain care about access north of the upper end of Navagability on the Mississippi at St. Paul?

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

Canada is pretty slavic OTL (mostly Ukrainians and Poles, but plenty of Russians too), so maybe TTL's USA got a similar ratio of Slavic immigration?

that's actually quite interesting, I suppose then that there is a fair chance of this united states being more slavic in it's makeup. and, there's probably going to be a wave of immigrants coming in from eastern europe following the end of hostilities.

 

[Glen]

Perhaps more Russian loan words from when Russia held Alaska, and the fact that it is just over the Berings Sea.

An interesting thought, but Alaska comes into American possession almost on schedule compared to OTL. Now, if you tell me that Canada has more (non-hockey) Russian loan words IOTL than the US does, then I might be persuaded...

I would also think more French loan words, not just because of Quebec, but because the French may feel more comfortable moving there.

Yes, definitely more.

Not in large droves obviously, since the French have Austrailian and NZ territory, but enough to keep new or new ways to use French words coming over from France itself.

Yes, true.

I would think the various Scandiniavian languages would add in new words to the US's English also.

True enough, though maybe about the same as in OTL northern US and Canada.

actually, I at least don't see any reason for there being more russian loanwords in TTL's american english. proximity and colonial history have not brought an infusion of russian culture OTL, and I see no reason why that would be different here. if I recall correctly TTL america actually aquired alaska sooner, and even if you don't have to go through canada to reach the rest of the united states TTL, alaska is still a tiny outpost on the end of a long supply line, and so is the part of russia across the strait. additionally there is still a rather strong political divide between the liberal western united states, and isolated korsgaardist russia.

Agree with all the above.

that said, I very much agree with you about the larger dose of french in this america's vernacular. I'm sure this has been mentioned quite often, but I would add that the presence of quebec in the union and the constitutional comminment to multilinguality probably strengthens the positipon of german speakers in america, or at least it seems like less of them might learn english. in fact if german is more prominent or widespread in this USA, and germans' westward migration patterns stay largely similar, there could one day be a couple of majority germanophone states in the northern plains region (montana, dakotas, around there).

Not majority, but a strong minority with German as a first language (most past the first generation will still be bilingual in English at least). There will be less pressure to only know English, but English will remain the lingua franca of America.

also, on the recent subject of accents it seems that with the migration coming down from quebec, and what I at least remember as being rather widespread mixing with anglophones, there might be a regional accent centered on ontario and eastern huron, with which we are unfamiliar in OTL. gitchigumee probably has a unique accent as well.

Agreed that there will be some differences.

 

[Glen]

Finally managed to catch up with your TL.

That's a fair amount of reading!

I particularly liked how your set up avoids the ACW (yes, there was the Slavers' rebellion, but It felt more like a rebellion and less like a civil war)

I am glad you liked it. Not certain how you differentiate the two - I think the bigger difference is that the Slaver Rebellion was not a straight 'regional' civil war (though there were regions, it wasn't straight up 'North vs South').

which is in my opinion one of the most blown out-of-proportion wars in history (especially in AH).

Perhaps, perhaps...

Other points for the integration of "Indians" and metis into the US and DSA (which by the way sounds awesome in the cultural department and it's poised to be a significant player in the international stage).

Thanks and agreed.

Good portrait of the Liberal and Global wars (also points for the formation of a united liberal Germany, not led by Prussia and for keeping the OTL's League of three emperors together in the wars, which makes much more sense),

Thanks, I rather liked those touches as well. Funny how alternate history sometimes makes more sense than real history....

I wonder if there's gonna a be a follow-up...

In what sense?

If I can make a criticism, I noticed a couple of updates where it was written "after a while there a fatigue after two mandates of Federalist in charge and the party lost the following election..." Why there was such a fatigue? OTL's republican hold the highest office for a very long while and there was no such fatigue.

Basically this USA has developed a tradition of two terms and next party, please - so an incumbant is less likely to be voted out, but in an open election (no incumbant) the party out of power previously has the advantage. It's just an American thang....

I'm all for the fatigue, but a cause for it would be nice.

It's a cultural mindset.

 

[Glen]

Canada is pretty slavic OTL (mostly Ukrainians and Poles, but plenty of Russians too), so maybe TTL's USA got a similar ratio of Slavic immigration?

Maybe similar absolute numbers, but not a similar ratio.

 

[Glen]

Customs inspections are likely to get much more severe if the USA and DSA ever have significantly different laws on something like Alcohol or Marijuana. I presume the customs inspection is more or less mirrored.

You presume correctly.

I agree, the USA could have completely tipped the balance in the fights in the 1830s

Well, the British might say otherwise, but no one wanted to take the chance...

Two questions in terms of the interpretation of the "free access". First, is the movement of the mouth toward the Atchafalaya likely to cause any friction based on what actually in the Mississippi? Based on the treaty, the DSA could create a transshipment point at the mouth of the Atchafalya which would give an advantage to DSA shippers for shipments west along the gulf coast.

What an interesting thought....only time will tell....

Sort of conversely, does the DSA/Britain care about access north of the upper end of Navagability on the Mississippi at St. Paul?

Not so much.

 

[Glen]

that's actually quite interesting, I suppose then that there is a fair chance of this united states being more slavic in it's makeup. and, there's probably going to be a wave of immigrants coming in from eastern europe following the end of hostilities.

Well, depends on how you count it. There will probably be the same amount overall of Slavic immigration to North America as OTL, but for different reasons and different timing. They will almost all go to TTL's US, of course.

 

[Glen]

The Global War was in many ways the end of Korsgaardism as a political force in the world. As part of the peace settlements for the Eastern Powers (excepting Russia), the defeated nations were required to disband the Korsgaardian single-party rule they had established and allow dissenting parties and politicians to operate in their nations. Truth be told, this was not a hard sell to the former Korsgaardian dominated nations as it had become obvious that their self-deluding national chauvanism and top-down, reality divorced economic policies had led to both military and financial ruin.

Zeus Korsgaard himself lived to see both the heights of Korsgaardian grandiosity and the depths of its failure. He lived out the remaining days of his life in Russia under the protection of the aging Tsar. It is rumored that his death was due to his excessive drinking after the Global War. His own bitter yet insightful critique of Korsgaardian theory, "The Blindness of the Juggernaut," published posthumously, is seen by many as the final nail in the coffin of Korsgaardist thought. Neo-Korsgaardist fringe groups often claim the work was a forgery, but literary and political analysis upholds it as a true Korsgaard work. Even though Zeus Korsgaard in the end disowned his own creation, he did defend a number of positives that had come from the Age of Korsgaard, such as the breaking of the stranglehold of the aristocracy on power and the establishment of protections by the state for workers in industry from the exploitation of industrialists (which of course led to the detractors of labor rights organizations as labeling them as 'quasi-Korsgaardists').

Korsgaardism, both for good and ill, had been the political philosophy that shaped the history of the late 19th century.

 

[FleetMac]

It's good to see that the Korsgaardists seem to be going the way of the Dodo. It's unfortunate however that the Russians still seem to abide by its doctrine even still; this doesn't fill me with much delight regarding the future state of events. I smell another Great War in the future, or at the very least a conflict with Russia at some point (they don't seem to have been decisively defeated, which may delude them into continuing to believe that their way of acting on the world stage is still acceptable, or even laudable).

Keep up the good work!

 

[Glen]

It's good to see that the Korsgaardists seem to be going the way of the Dodo.

Indeed - they flared bright but burned out.

It's unfortunate however that the Russians still seem to abide by its doctrine even still; this doesn't fill me with much delight regarding the future state of events. I smell another Great War in the future, or at the very least a conflict with Russia at some point (they don't seem to have been decisively defeated, which may delude them into continuing to believe that their way of acting on the world stage is still acceptable, or even laudable).

Yes, Russia still sees itself as inviolate and apart - the Hermit Kingdom of its time, you might say. Time will tell how that works out for them....

Keep up the good work!

Thank you, thank you very much. Encouragement helps mightily.

 

[bolhabela]

So can we see a map for europe post war?

 

[Glen]

So can we see a map for europe post war?

Hmmm, eventually, yes.

 

[Falastur]

His own bitter yet insightful critique of Korsgaardian theory, "The Blindness of the Juggernaut," published posthumously, is seen by many as the final nail in the coffin of Korsgaardist thought. Neo-Korsgaardist fringe groups often claim the work was a forgery, but literary and political analysis upholds it as a true Korsgaard work. Even though Zeus Korsgaard in the end disowned his own creation, he did defend a number of positives that had come from the Age of Korsgaard, such as the breaking of the stranglehold of the aristocracy on power and the establishment of protections by the state for workers in industry from the exploitation of industrialists (which of course led to the detractors of labor rights organizations as labeling them as 'quasi-Korsgaardists').

Interesting that Korsgaard disowned his own philosophy. I would've thought his book instead would've been a bitter critique - accurate or deluded - about how those countries which adopted it perverted it and turned it into something to be opposed, whereas he foresaw it as a unifying force adhered to be nations of happy-happy-fun-joy citizens who lived under a permanent rainbow in the land of milk and honey and where no-one could deny how it was a philosophy which solved all of the world's problems. At least, that would seem to be how most political zealots respond to seeing their good intentions coming to nothing - especially when they were forced to watch from the wings as other men (or women) took creative control of their philosophy on the world stage.

 

[Glen]

Interesting that Korsgaard disowned his own philosophy. I would've thought his book instead would've been a bitter critique - accurate or deluded - about how those countries which adopted it perverted it and turned it into something to be opposed, whereas he foresaw it as a unifying force adhered to be nations of happy-happy-fun-joy citizens who lived under a permanent rainbow in the land of milk and honey and where no-one could deny how it was a philosophy which solved all of the world's problems. At least, that would seem to be how most political zealots respond to seeing their good intentions coming to nothing - especially when they were forced to watch from the wings as other men (or women) took creative control of their philosophy on the world stage.

Well, there was a little bit of that in there, to be sure - however, Zeus drank deeply of that self-delusional cup when he was the toast of the Eastern World, and the crash when it came tore away his own delusions.