Map Thread IX
- Thread starter Vexacus
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No, but I'm of the opinion that Ethnicity should'nt mean shit, plus all the territory Greece itself got in the Balkan wars was'nt all Majority Greek either.
Esopo
Banned
If someone had made a map about greece annexing the usual stuff in thrace and anatolia and calling it fair people would have been screaming genocide so loud...
Considering the attitude of the Balkan states at the time period, their's a reason for that.
On the other hand the islands in question had been part of the Turkish plurality OE for centuries and did'nt face any genocide.
Esopo
Banned
meanwhile we arent talking of the ottoman empire but of turkey in your map... a nation which committed several atrocities against its own greeks.
If you mean the so called 'Greek Genocide' I don't consider that a Genocide anymore than the so call 'Armenian Genocide'.
Now, their were the population exchanges, but those were, you know, negotiated between Turkey AND Greece.
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Esopo
Banned
There were also widespread violences, exactly as in the armenian genocide, as you said.
That said, why in the hell shouldnt the idea that greeks should live under turk rule just because you think it is right be considered bigotry? if i say that arabs should live under european rule it would be, in this forum.
Why should a country be ripped apart just because not everyone is the same ethnic group?
Esopo
Banned
The reason is called self-determination, which is not even what we are talking about right now. What we are talking about now is: hy should a minority of one country be under another country with a different majority even if it doesnt want it? if i said that arabs or africans should be under european control, i would have been accused of bigotry. Why not you then?
The difference is the land we're talking about were'nt colonies, it was an area that was an integral part of the state Turkey is the direct successor of for centuries.
And as for Self-Determiation, then Italy should let South Tyrol become independent or Join Austria.
Just them or the Sicilians, Francophones, and others as well? I am still having difficulty with finding whether or not being are being sarcastic on here.
Esopo
Banned
First, nobody talked about colonies. I just talked of living under europeans for both blacks and arabs.
Second, yes south tyrol should be austrian... and italy would gain so much from that.
Third, u didnt answer my question: why a majority greek area, which doesnt want to be under the turks, should in ur mind be under the turks?
Aside from the immigrant population the areas European ruled over (excluding French Algeria for a certain amount of time) that were black or arab were ALL colonies, the large majority of them established after 1870.
Who say's they all wanted to be part of Greece?
That said, while I do in general support self-determination their are limits, and in the case of the partition of the Ottoman Empire their were no referendums held everywhere, they did'nt ask everyone, they just gave the territory to them.
As an addition to this, I'd like to note that in some fo the cases the only reason they became majority Greek (or even more Greek) was because of violence performed by the Greeks; for example in 1821 47% of the population of Crete were Muslims (Muslim Greeks, not Turks, but that did'nt stop the religious bigotry of the Orthodox Greeks), but because of violence and general negativity by the Orthodox population they started immigrating to the point that by 1880 they were only 26% of the population and after Crete merged with Greece the rest faced even more pressure to leave and those that remainder were eventually forcefully expelled.
You are a Turk, aren't you
No, I'm a Cascadian and natural-born American citizen of Spanish (Castillian specifically), British and North European (Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian) ancestry.
Their's still a Francophone portion of Italy?
Though if Sicily (or any other part of Italy), as defined by pre-agreed boundaries acceptable to both sides were to hold a referendum and a majority of the population voted to secede, then yes, they'd have the right, though I'm not sure why they'd want to since it's the Northern portion that tends to want that not the South.
I find it hard to believe it, but ok. Because you seem to sympathise alot with the Ottoman.
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