"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

[Brainbin]

So this is it. 1558. No Gloriana, no Good Queen Bess. Though amusingly enough, the monarch of England is unmarried, and may still be a virgin, to boot. So at least they have that in common!

Suffice to say, when it is over, Charles Stuart's chance of marrying either sister is essentially nil. Indeed, his chances of being in the same room with Mary or Antoinette without having an urge to wet himself are also fairly low. And so the Earl of Lennox begins a lifelong habit of failing big.

Looks like he has about as much cunning as our Lord Darnley, then. And I also notice you concealed the identity of his future bride; I imagine she must be quite the mover and shaker to be able to talk back to someone of his standing.

I'm in agreement with Margaret Douglas here, and definitely not writing off a marriage between Lennox and Antoinette. Even though she seems to have soured on him personally, their getting married just makes too much sense politically - like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, to name a particularly relevant example.

And so the two big camps of the Anglican Church now stand defined--the Puritans and the Libertines, both convinced they know what the Church of England needs and what has to be done.

So in addition to being a poet, a general, and a statesman, he's also a theologian? Truly, Norfolk is staking his claim as one of history's greatest Renaissance Men.

Libertine, by the way, is a terrific term. Much more evocative than "High Church", and far less ambiguous and confusing than "Anglo-Catholic" - a term that, for obvious reasons, I don't see catching on ITTL. And once again, a classic example of a group co-opting a detractor nickname.

I expect we're going to see the Puritans and the Libertines clashing sooner rather than later, what with... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS!

Dauphin Francois, he notes, is a dull, sweet boy, very sickly and often 'incoherant of speech'. While his father Henri spends time looking for a bride for him, he does not do so with much urgency. Henri claims that it is because he fears that overtaxing himself in the marriage bed may ruin what health his heir has, but Alba notes (with usual combination of cunning and bluntness) that he is fairly certain the King is convinced that Francois will die shortly. Francois' deformed brother Charles is more active and forceful, but also sullen and rather vain, boasting openly how he will one day be King of Scotland. Henri is, in fact, preparing a trip for his son to meet his bride-to-be in Scotland. (Alba, aware of how things have gone in Scotland, is amused by all this.)

The secrets of both the Dauphin's very poor health and the brash arrogance of the next-in-line are bound to get out now. The Duke of Alba definitely strikes me as the type of person who would make sure that they're leaked in Great Britain's general direction. This could be the long-awaited killing blow for the Tripartite Marriage Pact.

The ambassador also notes that while he'd heard that Charles stutters, he saw no evidence of this in his talk, with the young Prince's only speech impediment being a slight difficulty with his ls and rs 'that he takes great pains to correct'.

Now you've got me trying to imagine how he sounds. Is it more like Elmer Fudd or Homestar Runner? It's also unfortunate that he has both an l and r in his name, side-by-side: he would pronounce it Cawwos.

Queen Catherine assures him she can get little Henri to give up this nonsense, but the King feels that her coddling of the boy is what caused it in the first place. No, he'll have this handled his way. He's certain a regimen of beatings and stern religious teachers will bring Prince Henri back to his senses.

Speaking of Elmer Fudd, allow me to quote Bugs Bunny: What a maroon! Looks like we're going to have a Huguenot Prince, who stands a very good chance of becoming King. The obvious question is: will he find Paris to be well worth a mass?

And Irish Catholicism suffers another blow--O'Teague, his dander still up from the vigorous discussion, dies suddenly of a heart attack returning from the debate.[8] As Ireland is largely cut off from the Catholic world, this means it will be some time before they get a new Archbishop of Armagh.

For the Originalists to really cement themselves in Irish society, they need a perfect storm. Now the Catholic infrastructure is weakened, but there's still trouble on the other side. If the English were to get wind of this, they might be able to put an end to all of it before it even got started. Unless, of course, the English found themselves in the middle of a religious dispute, like, say... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS! Ah, it's all falling into place now...

King Henry plays a careful balancing act in his appointments--for example he grants Matthew Parker, generally seen as having Libertine sympathies, the Archbishophoric of Canterbury, while John Hooper,[16] a Puritan supporter, is granted the Archbishophoric of York.

I've said it twice already, do you really want me to say it again? No? All right.

The disease takes other noteworthy victims--Arthur Fitzroy buries his mother, Mary Howard[17], while Edward Tudor suffers greatly--his young son Thomas is among the dead. Even worse, his wife Barbara catches the illness while recovering from her latest pregnancy--a daughter--and dies shortly thereafter.[18] The double loss hits Edward hard, though he, as always, keeps a tight control over his emotions. While he can never have said to have loved his wife, he has become used to having her around--as for his son, it is the loss of his brother all over again. (Indeed, many of his odes written after this begin to conflate the pair.) Edward retires into seclusion for several months, watching over his remaining son, Edgar, and his newborn baby daughter, Barbara.

Poor Edward. Both of his nicknames are perfectly apt right now. I imagine he'll be in no hurry to remarry, but who knows? Maybe Dowager Queen Anne has one last matchmaking hurrah left in her.

Unfortunately, the expedition encounters a storm--badly damaged, it is forced to stop for repairs in the remote island of Bermuda in late November, where de Villegaigon manages to expertly navigate the difficult shoals that surround the isle. It will take several months to repair the damage--still Bermuda is quite hospitable...

Bermuda! As far as being left unmolested goes, they couldn't have picked a much better place. We'll see if this occurs to them. Or, if it doesn't, where they go from there. All the way to Brazil? There's plenty of enticing land on the way...

So, alas, no final Peace Treaty, and no resolution to the Tripartite Marriage Pact. But I'm sure they're forthcoming. As is, no doubt, Charles von Habsburg finally being created Prince of Asturias. And, of course, with all the foreshadowing this chapter... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS! (Sorry. Rule of Three and all that.)

And, as promised, I want to thank you for keeping Calais in English hands through 1558, the year it was lost once and for all IOTL. May Calais remain a part of the English patrimony until the end of time! Or at least until the end of the timeline.

 

[stevep]

Brainbin

So this is it. 1558. No Gloriana, no Good Queen Bess. Though amusingly enough, the monarch of England is unmarried, and may still be a virgin, to boot. So at least they have that in common!

Unmarried yes. Virginal as a royal male in this age extremely unlikely, especially considering his parentage.

Looks like he has about as much cunning as our Lord Darnley, then. And I also notice you concealed the identity of his future bride; I imagine she must be quite the mover and shaker to be able to talk back to someone of his standing.

Either that or really, really pissed off with him. Note also that is an exchange of letters so it sounds like the marriage is also rather distant geographically which suggests relations are already poor.

I'm in agreement with Margaret Douglas here, and definitely not writing off a marriage between Lennox and Antoinette. Even though she seems to have soured on him personally, their getting married just makes too much sense politically - like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, to name a particularly relevant example.

I'm rather tempted by this idea as well. As you say, while Antoinette may despise him [with good reason] she wants power and influence and for political reasons it does [seem] to make good sense. Although I suspect the combination of the two of them could kill off the Catholic cause in Scotland.

That would also fit in with the exchange of letters as she would have both the position, being the more highly ranked, and the personality to reply so lovingly to her dear husband.

So in addition to being a poet, a general, and a statesman, he's also a theologian? Truly, Norfolk is staking his claim as one of history's greatest Renaissance Men.

Libertine, by the way, is a terrific term. Much more evocative than "High Church", and far less ambiguous and confusing than "Anglo-Catholic" - a term that, for obvious reasons, I don't see catching on ITTL. And once again, a classic example of a group co-opting a detractor nickname.

I expect we're going to see the Puritans and the Libertines clashing sooner rather than later, what with... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS!

I'm getting to rather like and respect the Duke and as you say he is turning out to be a well rounded character. OTL if I had been about I would probably have supported Parliament, being against royal absolutionism. However, unless the dynasty really fouls things up, which is of course possibly, or ends up on the other side, I can see the Libertinians being fairly easy winners if it comes to an actual conflict.

The secrets of both the Dauphin's very poor health and the brash arrogance of the next-in-line are bound to get out now. The Duke of Alba definitely strikes me as the type of person who would make sure that they're leaked in Great Britain's general direction. This could be the long-awaited killing blow for the Tripartite Marriage Pact.

I think the key factor here might be that Charles, as well as being the probable heir to France, is so confident about becoming 'king' of Scotland, which will put backs up both in Scotland and England, even without his character defects. Doubt that Mary has any intention of letting any husband becoming the dominant partner in her marriage, especially after what she has been through already. Also it will really cement in Scots eyes the view of the French as arrogant.

And, as promised, I want to thank you for keeping Calais in English hands through 1558, the year it was lost once and for all IOTL. May Calais remain a part of the English patrimony until the end of time! Or at least until the end of the timeline.

I was wonder what you were wishing for for 1558 and had forgotten we had lost Calais that year.

You do realise that Space Oddity is planning to take the TL up to 50,000 AD

Steve

 

[Brainbin]

Unmarried yes. Virginal as a royal male in this age extremely unlikely, especially considering his parentage.

I agree, it's fairly likely that Henry IX isn't actually a virgin, though it's been repeatedly stated that he's far less experienced with women than everyone expects him to be. And as famous as dear old dad was with his libidinous exploits, he was the only male Tudor for whom this was really the case. Granted, Edward VI died young, but Arthur and Henry Fitzroy may not have even consummated their marriages, and once Henry VII married Elizabeth of York, there's no record of so much as a casual fling (and he didn't remarry after she died, either, even though it was really in his best interest to do so). He's probably capable of keeping it in his breeches, is what I'm saying.

That would also fit in with the exchange of letters as she would have both the position, being the more highly ranked, and the personality to reply so lovingly to her dear husband.

This is precisely what I was driving at. I agree - the wife does sound like a certain "viper". And why would the wife's name not be mentioned if it weren't someone significant?

I think the key factor here might be that Charles, as well as being the probable heir to France, is so confident about becoming 'king' of Scotland, which will put backs up both in Scotland and England, even without his character defects. Doubt that Mary has any intention of letting any husband becoming the dominant partner in her marriage, especially after what she has been through already. Also it will really cement in Scots eyes the view of the French as arrogant.

As a Royal Prince of France, even if he weren't the de facto Heir to the Throne, he'd certainly be made King Consort (after all, OTL Darnley was created as such, with far less justification). So yes, I imagine that's one of many reasons that Mary isn't so hot on the Tripartite Marriage Pact.

You do realise that Space Oddity is planning to take the TL up to 50,000 AD

At his current pace, it'll take him roughly nine years to catch up to the present day alone! And another nine to get to the year 2525. If man is still alive...

 

[SavoyTruffle]

More glorious stuff. Prince Charles of Spain gives me hope for his dynasty while his father manages to make things worse than OTL.

France is very interesting in the Chinese sense here.

 

[Elfwine]

More glorious stuff. Prince Charles of Spain gives me hope for his dynasty while his father manages to make things worse than OTL.

France is very interesting in the Chinese sense here.

How much worse than OTL (not counting his lack-of-relationship with his heir) can you get? I mean, what's he going to do, declare war on Austria?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

How much worse than OTL (not counting his lack-of-relationship with his heir) can you get? I mean, what's he going to do, declare war on Austria?

Considering that in OTL he got England temporarily on his side, yeah, things are worse for Philip relatively.

Though that's what happens when your father stresses himself out on being the luckiest guy on Earth and you can't do his balancing act as well.

 

[Elfwine]

Considering that in OTL he got England temporarily on his side, yeah, things are worse for Philip relatively.

Though that's what happens when your father stresses himself out on being the luckiest guy on Earth and you can't do his balancing act as well.

True.

And the way he's treating his son is not going to end well. Carlos himself might not do anything treacherous about it, but alienating princes never works well.

Though on that note, Henri seems bound and determined to win the competition for "Worst. Royal. Father. Ever." So Philip might not be quite so bad if the King of France is in the running.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

True.

And the way he's treating his son is not going to end well. Carlos himself might not do anything treacherous about it, but alienating princes never works well.

Though, Henri seems bound and determined to win the competition for "Worst. Royal. Father. Ever."

Let's face it, being a royal prince is bound to bring out a lot of Freudian (or whatever the equivalent of Freud is TTL) issues especially when your father has to balance the act of geopolitics, economics, and religion.

 

[Elfwine]

Let's face it, being a royal prince is bound to bring out a lot of Freudian (or whatever the equivalent of Freud is TTL) issues especially when your father has to balance the act of geopolitics, economics, and religion.

This is true. But some men - and in different ways both Philip and Henri are supremely awful - are not cut out to handle that.

And taking it out on their sons is not a good way of making the job any easier.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

This is true. But some men - and in different ways both Philip and Henri are supremely awful - are not cut out to handle that.

And taking it out on their sons is not a good way of making the job any easier.

Their biggest failings are not as gritty as their fathers were.

Fathers ate sour grapes with the children's teeth, you get the picture.

 

[Elfwine]

Their biggest failings are not as gritty as their fathers were.

Fathers ate sour grapes with the children's teeth, you get the picture.

What?

Sorry, that didn't make any sense.

 

[stevep]

How much worse than OTL (not counting his lack-of-relationship with his heir) can you get? I mean, what's he going to do, declare war on Austria?

Elfwine

You know the rules! Do NOT give Space Oddity any more ideas!

Seriously, I'm not sure how much difference Philip is doing than OTL. I know he 'had difficulties' with his heir and managed to totally foul up relations with the Low Countries and that seems to be largely on schedule.

Steve

 

[stevep]

Their biggest failings are not as gritty as their fathers were.

Fathers ate sour grapes with the children's teeth, you get the picture.

SavoyTruffle

I would have to agree with Elfwine here that I don't get the picture. Possibly something lost in translation?

Suspect you're saying both feel their not measuring up to their fathers, as they see them? Which leaves them frustrated and seeking to drive their own sons to do better.

Steve

 

[SavoyTruffle]

It was something along the lines of "the children reap what the fathers sow", actually. Forgive my invocation of an obscure Biblical phrase.

 

[Elfwine]

Elfwine

You know the rules! Do NOT give Space Oddity any more ideas!

Seriously, I'm not sure how much difference Philip is doing than OTL. I know he 'had difficulties' with his heir and managed to totally foul up relations with the Low Countries and that seems to be largely on schedule.

Steve

If "Philip turns into a paranoid schitzophrenic" hasn't occured to him, he's not as good as I thought he was.

SavoyTruffle: Ah. Hopefully the next generation will break the trend, but I'm not sure.

Cawwos might have his act together, for all his engaging...quirks...but I'm not sure about France.

 

[stevep]

It was something along the lines of "the children reap what the fathers sow", actually. Forgive my invocation of an obscure Biblical phrase.

ST - Sounds a bit like 'those who sow the storm reap the whirlwind'.

If "Philip turns into a paranoid schitzophrenic" hasn't occured to him, he's not as good as I thought he was.

SavoyTruffle: Ah. Hopefully the next generation will break the trend, but I'm not sure.

Cawwos might have his act together, for all his engaging...quirks...but I'm not sure about France.

Cawwos seems to have his act together at the moment but a few more years of his fathers dedicated loving could change that drastically. I do agree that France also looks in a bad way.

Steve

 

[Space Oddity]

So many lovely replies to make!

Once again, thank you for all your kind words. Now

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse. There are so many things boding ill for the world in this chapter.

a) - A loved son, named after his father and with his beloved misstress as the mother. I can see how well the new Ferdinand will get on with his half-brother Albert. Have this feeling that we won't have both making it to a mature age.

Ha. No comment on the very last part. That stated... Prince Albert and Ferdinand of Austria are obviously not going to have the most functional fraternal relationship.

b) - This sounds like the marriage will go ahead, despite the objections of little Marguerite. Or possibly, whether it does or not the groom will make it to the throne and really be a thorn in the French side. [That could be an interesting scenario although we would have to wait a long time for Philip to die if he lives as OTL.

Let's just say that the ambassador will realize years later that he was had.

c) King Henri's handling of the Duke of Bourbon. Showing the right amount of weakness to upset everybody.

Prince of Conde--his brother Antoine is Duke of Bourbon, and King jux usuris of Navarre. And it's worth noting what a force Louis is that despite being the third son--he's pretty much the leader of the Bourbons. (Well, he and his sister-in-law Jeanne, Queen of Navarre.

d) King Henri's handling of his son Henri - sounds like an excellent way to re-win him over to the Catholic faith - not. Not to mention it means a member of the current royal family becomes an hero figure and an abused martyr for the Huguenots, which could have some nasty side effects.

This is what comes of spending a good chunk of your childhood in a prison in Madrid. (Real story--when Henri and his elder brother were released their jailor asked them if they had something to declare. Francois of course, said nothing. Henri let loose an awesome fart.)

e) King Philip's handling of the Low Countries. He seems to have made every mistake possible, alienating both Catholics and Protestants, while having to back down on the main issues. Also imposes restrictions on his regent which will frustrate and weaken her position. Then the final parting words to ensure the loyalty [not] of William of Orange - who may be forced into rebellion in the not too distant future because he feels that staying obedient is harmful to his health.

The best part? Pretty much what happened OTL. It's easy to forget that the revolt wasn't just exclusive to Protestants when it began--Philip had pissed off everybody.

f) The 'debate' in Ireland, that looks likely to bring things to a head and also has weakened the Catholics in the face of the new Originalists.

Hmmm... Simple version--Fearghail now has the friendship of the most powerful man in Northern Ireland. This is a good thing--well, for him. But he still needs the perfect opportunity to move. So he's waiting for that to come...

g) The death of Edward's son and wife. Given his withdrawn nature and the mention that he 'controls' his emotions I wonder if there is going to be an outburst at some point or he is going to end up on a dark path. Hope not as I quite like him but have my fears.

Hmmm....

Define 'dark'.

f) - Lovely line. Is Rene de Guise being particularly dense or is Coligny's faith still a closely guarded secret?

There may be rumors, but Rene likes the Admiral, so he's sure they're wrong. Everyone knows Huguenots have horns!

h) - You mean no one thought of this small point before asking for their help? Sweden also sounds less than stable, just like the dynasty.

The Livonian War is sort of the Renaissance version of the Partition of Poland.

i) - This is of course not something that will trouble Charles's loving dad, renowned for his tolerance and feelings for his son and heir, when he get back to Spain. If it wasn't for the comment earlier about the French ambassador's reaction to Charles, which suggests the latter would be about for quite a while I would be more than a little concerned about his health.

Hey, not even Philip would kill his son over a book. A fact Charles knows full well.

On other points I think Shah Tamasp is quite right that this is not the time for war with the Ottomans, but I suspect it is coming closer.

Well, remember they just fought a war not that long ago, which did not go well for Persia. And the Ottoman Empire is still the big boy in the East.

Steve hit the main points. I do want to emphasize as the resident Hapsburg fanboy/loyalist that Charles and Philip are continuing to do what they've been doing so far, which is to say the former is winning my heart and the latter is...well, the Black Legend might be more charitable, in a way. It implied Philip was competent.

Yeah. I've got to give the man some credit--he was a skilled administrator when he wanted to be. But he was essentially a great King of Castille who had also inherited a whole lot of other territories, and early on, he largely refused to try and understand that things were different there. He improved in his later years--but by then, the damage was done.

So this is it. 1558. No Gloriana, no Good Queen Bess. Though amusingly enough, the monarch of England is unmarried, and may still be a virgin, to boot. So at least they have that in common!

Well, that and red hair.

Looks like he has about as much cunning as our Lord Darnley, then. And I also notice you concealed the identity of his future bride; I imagine she must be quite the mover and shaker to be able to talk back to someone of his standing.

Well, that would depend on his standing in 1568, now wouldn't it? That stated--she's an important woman in XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

I'm in agreement with Margaret Douglas here, and definitely not writing off a marriage between Lennox and Antoinette. Even though she seems to have soured on him personally, their getting married just makes too much sense politically - like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, to name a particularly relevant example.

It could definitely still happen at this point. Will it?

Well, that's to be seen...

Libertine, by the way, is a terrific term. Much more evocative than "High Church", and far less ambiguous and confusing than "Anglo-Catholic" - a term that, for obvious reasons, I don't see catching on ITTL. And once again, a classic example of a group co-opting a detractor nickname.

Thanks. I should add that the Libertines are much more Protestant that the High Churchers--closer to Lutheranism--AND their beliefs are going to lead them--or some sections of them--in interesting directions...

I expect we're going to see the Puritans and the Libertines clashing sooner rather than later, what with... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS!

Bingo.

The secrets of both the Dauphin's very poor health and the brash arrogance of the next-in-line are bound to get out now. The Duke of Alba definitely strikes me as the type of person who would make sure that they're leaked in Great Britain's general direction. This could be the long-awaited killing blow for the Tripartite Marriage Pact.

Now you've got me trying to imagine how he sounds. Is it more like Elmer Fudd or Homestar Runner? It's also unfortunate that he has both an l and r in his name, side-by-side: he would pronounce it Cawwos.

It's more subtle than that. As noted, he takes great pains to correct it.

Speaking of Elmer Fudd, allow me to quote Bugs Bunny: What a maroon! Looks like we're going to have a Huguenot Prince, who stands a very good chance of becoming King. The obvious question is: will he find Paris to be well worth a mass?

That is the question, isn't it?

Or is it? BWAHAHAHAHA!

For the Originalists to really cement themselves in Irish society, they need a perfect storm. Now the Catholic infrastructure is weakened, but there's still trouble on the other side. If the English were to get wind of this, they might be able to put an end to all of it before it even got started. Unless, of course, the English found themselves in the middle of a religious dispute, like, say... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS! Ah, it's all falling into place now...

Oh

Poor Edward. Both of his nicknames are perfectly apt right now. I imagine he'll be in no hurry to remarry, but who knows? Maybe Dowager Queen Anne has one last matchmaking hurrah left in her.

Good question.

Bermuda! As far as being left unmolested goes, they couldn't have picked a much better place. We'll see if this occurs to them. Or, if it doesn't, where they go from there. All the way to Brazil? There's plenty of enticing land on the way...

We shall see.

So, alas, no final Peace Treaty, and no resolution to the Tripartite Marriage Pact. But I'm sure they're forthcoming. As is, no doubt, Charles von Habsburg finally being created Prince of Asturias. And, of course, with all the foreshadowing this chapter... THE DISPUTE OF THE HYMNALS! (Sorry. Rule of Three and all that.)

Yep. All down the road.

And, as promised, I want to thank you for keeping Calais in English hands through 1558, the year it was lost once and for all IOTL. May Calais remain a part of the English patrimony until the end of time! Or at least until the end of the timeline.

Ahh, don't mention it. Now--keeping it in the years ahead will be the tough part. But they're at least in a better place to do that...

 

[Elfwine]

Yeah. I've got to give the man some credit--he was a skilled administrator when he wanted to be. But he was essentially a great King of Castille who had also inherited a whole lot of other territories, and early on, he largely refused to try and understand that things were different there. He improved in his later years--but by then, the damage was done.

That's the problem. Philip wasn't an idiot, but he had a perfect combination of weaknesses to go down as a disastrous emperor (small e).

Micromanaging, ideological, stubborn...and the kind of hard working that's not good for the empire rather than the kind that is. A king who spends his time personally handling paperwork isn't what Spain needed.

I'm sure the suspense is part of the plot, but can we get a hint if Carlos outlives Philip? Or otherwise has some chance to show what kind of ruler he is?

 

[Space Oddity]

That's the problem. Philip wasn't an idiot, but he had a perfect combination of weaknesses to go down as a disastrous emperor (small e).

Micromanaging, ideological, stubborn...and the kind of hard working that's not good for the empire rather than the kind that is. A king who spends his time personally handling paperwork isn't what Spain needed.

I'm sure the suspense is part of the plot, but can we get a hint if Carlos outlives Philip? Or otherwise has some chance to show what kind of ruler he is?

Rest assured, I haven't built all this up for nothing. The world will get to see what kind of ruler Charles von Hapsburg is.

 

[Elfwine]

Rest assured, I haven't built all this up for nothing. The world will get to see what kind of ruler Charles von Hapsburg is.

I'm sure it will be more interesting than blissful, but good to know.