With all the benefit of hindsight, you get to write the treaty to decide the future of Germany post-WW1. What do you think? Try to compare it to the actual treaty- how would you have made it better?
How would you have handled Versailles?
- Thread starter Taktubaani
- Start date
abc123
Banned
Either peace with "no reparations-no annexations" or completely break Germany into pre-1871 states...
Either peace with "no reparations-no annexations" or completely break Germany into pre-1871 states...
This ... with probably the exception of Alsace/Lorraine of course
abc123
Banned
Simply, IMO there's no middle way ( as in OTL ). You either have to have happy Germany ( that looses no territory and pays no reperations, maybe loss of A-L ) or you have to break germany apart, becauce angry germany will rise again and you WILL have another war soon...
Versailles could have even been worse - if it had been a negotiated peace. But because it was a brutal dictate instead, the Germans never - and this means all political parties and groups of society - ever would try to comply beyond the pressure of the bayonets of the Entente. They simply didn't see it as a contract, but only as something forced upon them when they were unable to resist to the dictate.
Versailles should have been different, but I don't think Versailles could have been much different. I've watched the negotiations gamed out a couple of time, refereed it once. It was done with people who weren't very familiar with the whole WW One thing, but it was very interesting. Watching a shouting match over whether or not Poland gets East or West Prussia is strangely hilarious for an observer. Every time the final deal was pretty close to original Versailles.
Answering the question, Germany should have been part of the negotiations. Maybe stick closer to Wilson's 14 Points. They lose A-L and most of their colonies. However, maybe a larger army though naval & air force restrictions stay. Lighter/easier to pay reparations and DEFINITELY no war guilt clause. Not sure about Anschluss with Austria or the eastern borders, maybe plebiscites by area. But none of this paragraph was ever going to happen if the French were part of the negotiations.
Answering the question, Germany should have been part of the negotiations. Maybe stick closer to Wilson's 14 Points. They lose A-L and most of their colonies. However, maybe a larger army though naval & air force restrictions stay. Lighter/easier to pay reparations and DEFINITELY no war guilt clause. Not sure about Anschluss with Austria or the eastern borders, maybe plebiscites by area. But none of this paragraph was ever going to happen if the French were part of the negotiations.
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Apologies to those who've heard me before on this point, but that was the heart of it.
The Allied peoples wanted two incompatible things. Right now, they wanted a stern peace which would give those beastly Huns what they had coming. But, longer term, they wanted to go home and cultivate their gardens, and be free to "study war no more". IOW, they wanted a peace which only actual or threatened military effort could maintain - without their ever being required to make that effort. The result was depressingly predictable.
The Germans wouldn't have signed, and the only way to make it stick would be to occupy the whole country - an effort the will power for which simply did not exist.
I'd break up Germany and make tons of little monarchies and hand them out to whats left of the Russian Royalty
The Sandman
Banned
Certain elements of the OTL treaty (the colonies, Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy, disposal of the High Seas Fleet) are to be retained.
Break the southern German states off and unify them with Austria.
Give Silesia to Czechoslovakia, give both West and East Prussia to Poland (make the Poles give the Lithuanians Vilnius to slightly offset this).
Give the Danes the entirety of Schleswig.
Give the Dutch something too; East Frisia, perhaps.
Give the Saar to Luxembourg, along with any territory necessary to make it contiguous with the prewar Grand Duchy.
Occupy the Rhineland for long enough to dismantle a significant portion of its industry and ship it back to France and Belgium.
Heligoland goes to Britain.
Transfer of all German patents, as well as the German gold reserves.
British, French and American corporations granted majority shares in a wide range of German industrial concerns, particularly those which might produce anything that can be put to military use. This is set up so that each involved Entente corporation is given control of a set of companies, not so that the majority stake in each German company is divided among multiple corporations. Forbid any sale of shares in any of these companies to German investors for at least twenty or thirty years, except where such shares are explicitly stated to grant no voting rights whatsoever within the corporation.
Ban the Germans from establishing tariffs of any kind, except on such goods as the Entente nations might prefer to be able to purchase more cheaply from Germany.
The Germans are to put some number of their infantry divisions at the disposal of the Entente powers. These divisions will be used up as part of the intervention in the Russian Civil War. They will also be required to supply a certain number of divisions for the use of the League of Nations, each of which will be quartered outside of Germany for the duration of its service.
The German soldiers seconded to the League of Nations will be required to purchase all of their own equipment within Germany, in quantities and at prices to be set by Entente quartermasters. German armaments manufacturers will be required to provide said quantities at said prices.
In short (or not, I suppose), give every one of Germany's neighbors a stake in containing and suppressing it, cripple their economy in such a fashion as to make them little more than an exploitable appendage of the Entente, and send as much of their military as possible to die in Russia and any other place that the Big Three don't want to expend their own lives on.
If the Germans refuse these terms, continue the blockade until either they surrender or they completely disintegrate, whichever comes first.
Break the southern German states off and unify them with Austria.
Give Silesia to Czechoslovakia, give both West and East Prussia to Poland (make the Poles give the Lithuanians Vilnius to slightly offset this).
Give the Danes the entirety of Schleswig.
Give the Dutch something too; East Frisia, perhaps.
Give the Saar to Luxembourg, along with any territory necessary to make it contiguous with the prewar Grand Duchy.
Occupy the Rhineland for long enough to dismantle a significant portion of its industry and ship it back to France and Belgium.
Heligoland goes to Britain.
Transfer of all German patents, as well as the German gold reserves.
British, French and American corporations granted majority shares in a wide range of German industrial concerns, particularly those which might produce anything that can be put to military use. This is set up so that each involved Entente corporation is given control of a set of companies, not so that the majority stake in each German company is divided among multiple corporations. Forbid any sale of shares in any of these companies to German investors for at least twenty or thirty years, except where such shares are explicitly stated to grant no voting rights whatsoever within the corporation.
Ban the Germans from establishing tariffs of any kind, except on such goods as the Entente nations might prefer to be able to purchase more cheaply from Germany.
The Germans are to put some number of their infantry divisions at the disposal of the Entente powers. These divisions will be used up as part of the intervention in the Russian Civil War. They will also be required to supply a certain number of divisions for the use of the League of Nations, each of which will be quartered outside of Germany for the duration of its service.
The German soldiers seconded to the League of Nations will be required to purchase all of their own equipment within Germany, in quantities and at prices to be set by Entente quartermasters. German armaments manufacturers will be required to provide said quantities at said prices.
In short (or not, I suppose), give every one of Germany's neighbors a stake in containing and suppressing it, cripple their economy in such a fashion as to make them little more than an exploitable appendage of the Entente, and send as much of their military as possible to die in Russia and any other place that the Big Three don't want to expend their own lives on.
If the Germans refuse these terms, continue the blockade until either they surrender or they completely disintegrate, whichever comes first.
Honestly with a treaty like this, why they must surrender? Better fight to the end, it cannot be worse
Shadow Master
Banned
Germany looses her colonies (which, as they were already lost, should be no big deal or surprise), but no other penalties.
No wrongful "German war guilt".
No territorial concessions, of any kind, to anyone (other than the overseas colonies).
No war reparations.
No limits imposed upon German military.
How does that strike you folks?
No wrongful "German war guilt".
No territorial concessions, of any kind, to anyone (other than the overseas colonies).
No war reparations.
No limits imposed upon German military.
How does that strike you folks?
The Germans would rather die off like flies and fight to the bitter end than sign that.
Honest, sensible and very thoughfull...and the French and British delegations will be tarred and feathered if they come back home with a treaty of this kind, if they are lucky naturally.
After WWI nobody is in so good mood and frankly A-H and Ottoman empires are been dismembered so why the Germans get out with a slap?
At least A-L must go and Poland created (but the Entente must reign the Polish and don't permit other annexation like during their uprising or permit the Lithuans to grab Memel territory)
No anti-unification with Austria clause
Reasonable war reparations
Colonies go to the victors
Limit imposed upon the German military limited on time
How about this:
German colonies go with the provison that they may be returned in 25 years. Alsace-Lorraine is reintegrated into France. Poland is created. German army is limited to the size of the French Army. Its air force limited to the French Air Force size, and it's navy limited to the size of the French Navy.
Danzig and Memel are partitioned from Germany for 15 years, then allowed to rejoin Germany. Germany is guaranteed access across the Polish corridor.
Since Germany did not start the war, no reparations are required.
German colonies go with the provison that they may be returned in 25 years. Alsace-Lorraine is reintegrated into France. Poland is created. German army is limited to the size of the French Army. Its air force limited to the French Air Force size, and it's navy limited to the size of the French Navy.
Danzig and Memel are partitioned from Germany for 15 years, then allowed to rejoin Germany. Germany is guaranteed access across the Polish corridor.
Since Germany did not start the war, no reparations are required.
I agree with most of this, but I think reparations are necessary, not too high though. Without the dismantling of Germany these payments should be much easier to make.
Isot the Terrible
Banned
West Prussia remains German.
No war guilt clause.
Much lower reparations.
Germany allowed a small air force.