Where is the "natural" boundary between North and South?

[Socrates]

Obviously in OTL the boundary was the Mason-Dixon line, based on colonial boundaries, but I'm trying to find where the boundary could have been between slave and free colonies if settlement had been different. I'm assuming that crops were the natural difference, with tobacco/rice being slave crops and grains being free ones.

From my research, it seems like western Maryland was grain country with very strong union support, so this makes me think this should "naturally" be in the north". But did grain farming expand further sound into Virginia even? On the other hand, there seemed to be tobacco farming in Delaware and some even in Pennsylvania, so I can't be sure.

Would love to get some guidance from others!

 

[Taktubaani]

The Equator.

 

[Socrates]

If it wasn't clear, I was referring to the United States/Northern America.

 

[Horgus]

As a southerner, and native of the state of Alabama, I personally consider anything north of the Carolinas to be Yank country.

My definition of what is the South consists of what is eastern Texas, over through Oklahoma, Arkansas, past Tennessee and through to the Carolinas.

Florida however is quite nebulous. The panhandle is certainly a southerner's delight, with the middle and southern portions of the state being much too urban and cosmopolitan for any cornbread raised boy to handle.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

As a southerner, and native of the state of Alabama, I personally consider anything north of the Carolinas to be Yank country.

My definition of what is the South consists of what is eastern Texas, over through Oklahoma, Arkansas, past Tennessee and through to the Carolinas.

Florida however is quite nebulous. The panhandle is certainly a southerner's delight, with the middle and southern portions of the state being much too urban and cosmopolitan for any cornbread raised boy to handle.

Er, every Southerner not from Alabama is perfectly comfortable with big cities, I assure you. Florida is still totally southern.

 

[Socrates]

As a southerner, and native of the state of Alabama, I personally consider anything north of the Carolinas to be Yank country.

My definition of what is the South consists of what is eastern Texas, over through Oklahoma, Arkansas, past Tennessee and through to the Carolinas.

Florida however is quite nebulous. The panhandle is certainly a southerner's delight, with the middle and southern portions of the state being much too urban and cosmopolitan for any cornbread raised boy to handle.

Thanks for this, but I'm more interested in how it was pre-1900. In that period, wouldn't Virginia definitely be considered southern?

 

[RomanNumeralII]

As a native Virginian, I can tell you that there are still plenty of Southern people here, and I only expect that to have been even more so pre-1900.

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

Using modern states, this is the potential that could have been free vs slave.

Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland (though debateable), Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado (debateable), New Mexico, Arizona, Hawaii (considering its history).

However, It varies greatly because of cultures. In Victoria II, you can essentially decide which cultures are where and I've had Idaho and Washington state being Slave South because of the culture, and they broke away as the CSA. Though this is just a video game, It provides an interesting look into what could be where.

 

[Socrates]

Using modern states, this is the potential that could have been free vs slave.

Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland (though debateable), Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado (debateable), New Mexico, Arizona, Hawaii (considering its history).

However, It varies greatly because of cultures. In Victoria II, you can essentially decide which cultures are where and I've had Idaho and Washington state being Slave South because of the culture, and they broke away as the CSA. Though this is just a video game, It provides an interesting look into what could be where.

I would imagine slave culture would depends on economics though, which is dependent on whether plantation slavery is viable. This seems unlikely in Washington state. How far north did plantations exist in Virginia, Delaware and Maryland?

 

[President Sam Houston]

During the settlement of the colonies, the settling people were as big a factor as climate or soil in determining whether slavery was an accepted practice or not. While most Northern states had abolished slavery by the 1790 census, slavery still existed in both New Jersey and New York (I think). In New York, when it abolished slavery had something like 6% of the population as slaves. Its southern neighbor, Pennsylvania had almost no slaves, and had never developed any type of culture that accepted slavery. So it wasn't geography that created a culture in NY more accepting of slavery (though not remotely so compared with Virginia and the Carolinas), and less so in Pennsylvania. But more than likely the fact that so many of the people that settled in Pennsylvania were Germans, Quakers, and other religious conservatives who did not believe in slavery.

But looking at the 1790 census, the only slave state that seemed out of place was Delaware. Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, and even Maryland had something like 30% or more of the population enslaved. Delaware was much lower.

I guess it was theoretically possible that a plantation culture that grew a cash crop that required lots of labor to cultivate could have developed in parts of Pennsylvania and New York in the 18th century - and with such a culture could come slavery.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Georgia started out as a free colony and someone on this board wrote a TL about the gold being discovered there early, creating a gold rush and keeping it free.

 

[Umbric Man]

But looking at the 1790 census, the only slave state that seemed out of place was Delaware. Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, and even Maryland had something like 30% or more of the population enslaved. Delaware was much lower.

As I always say, Delaware's very low slave population, Yankee-bred Anglo-American population, pro-union stance, and traditional focus towards Pennsylvania made us 'northern'.

'Course, I consider Maryland southern by contrast due to it being part of the 'traditional' south and also Baltimore rioting for/MD's governor for secession.

 

[NothingNow]

It's derived from the Patterns of Settlement.

Traditionally "Southern" Areas were the ones that could truly support plantation style agriculture based off cash crops and the like, and had that sort of settlement. Mainly coastal and inland lowlands really.

Places like North Carolina, the Appalachian mountains, and most of the Southern Swamps (before the Cultivation of Rice and Sugar on a large scale anyway,) tended to be Free islands, while the rest of the South was more focused on the typical plantation pattern.

Of course, this whole attempt, like any other efforts to create "natural" boundaries fail when you look in too closely, with Florida, the Bahamas and the Sea Islands throwing one hell of a wrench into the works.

 

[NothingNow]

As a southerner, and native of the state of Alabama, I personally consider anything north of the Carolinas to be Yank country.

My definition of what is the South consists of what is eastern Texas, over through Oklahoma, Arkansas, past Tennessee and through to the Carolinas.

Florida however is quite nebulous. The panhandle is certainly a southerner's delight, with the middle and southern portions of the state being much too urban and cosmopolitan for any cornbread raised boy to handle.

That's just you. the rest of us like our Cities just fine, and as 9 fanged hummingbird said, Florida is still as Southern as it ever was. Not that we ever really fit the typical "Southern" pattern anyway.

 

[eschaton]

See, I think the issue is there are two separate definitions of southern.

One, as people here suggest is plantation culture. This is a bit questionable, IMHO, as under this definition areas of upland South Carolina and Georgia wouldn't be southern.

The other, which is more accurate, IMHO, is the settlement patterns of the early colonial period. Most of the Midwest, for example, was colonized from Virginia before the Erie Canal opened - hence southern Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana seem very culturally southern compared to the northern parts of the same states.

 

[NothingNow]

The other, which is more accurate, IMHO, is the settlement patterns of the early colonial period. Most of the Midwest, for example, was colonized from Virginia before the Erie Canal opened - hence southern Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana seem very culturally southern compared to the northern parts of the same states.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was trying to get at, although the divide is probably something like a mix of both, with Plantation Agriculture being the southernmost end on the scale. Hell, this whole thing seems to be an effort in futility, trying to pigeonhole some of the most diverse regions in the country into a binary pattern.
You could maybe do it on a 3d Chart, with Axis for Cultural Southernness, Relative Concentration of Wealth, and Overall wealth per capita.

 

[DuQuense]

Georgia started out as a free colony and someone on this board wrote a TL about the gold being discovered there early, creating a gold rush and keeping it free.

ME ME

I think the Nine Nations Map is pretty accurate for today, if you factor in some changes due to Hispanic Growth.

If you factor out post WW2 Industrail Growth along the Border and move it North a Little it would work for pre 1900.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ninenations.PNG

 

[pa_dutch]

As a native Virginian, I can tell you that there are still plenty of Southern people here, and I only expect that to have been even more so pre-1900.

Yeah, as someone who lives right near the Mason-Dixon line (Philadelphia), I definitely think of Virginia as a Southern state. There is a lot of Northern encroachment, but I've seen enough small towns full of Southern "charm", not to mention accents. Delaware doesn't feel very Southern, Maryland is a mixed bag, and West Virginia is more on the Southern side (for the most part, at least). It seems to be more of an East-West thing, really, with Delmarva and the Chesapeake coast having more of a Mid-Atlantic feel and the mainland getting progressively more Southern... Even in southern Pennsylvania, I've been very surprised to find people I thought were Southerners who actually happen to be natives of York County.

 

[T3h_shammy]

Er, every Southerner not from Alabama is perfectly comfortable with big cities, I assure you. Florida is still totally southern.

Living in Tampa, or Orlando, or Miami. Three of the major Cities in Florida, no Florida is not totally Southern. And I resent that anyone would call us totally Southern.

 

[Horgus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ninenations.PNG

Yeah, I think this map sums it up pretty well.