Greek Islam

[8Deer]

Inspired by the thread "Western Islam" further down the page, what would Islam look like if the Byzantine Empire was conquered during the first wave of the Islamic invasions? Let's assume that Persia loses Mesopotamia but manages to survive behind the Zagros mountains. I'm not looking for the political effects of this, I'm more focused on the cultural effects (what would the people eat, what languages would they speak, how would they worship..etc)

So, what would Islam look like with a large amount of Greek influence rather than Persian?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Didn't Islam already had a lot of Greek influence to begin with?

 

[wolf_brother]

Didn't Islam already had a lot of Greek influence to begin with?

Therefore they're be even more Greek influence. POD Islamic expansion initially goes West into Byzantine Empire and Europe instead of East into Sassanid Empire and Greater Persia?

 

[8Deer]

Didn't Islam already had a lot of Greek influence to begin with?

Probably. I don't really know much about the subject, but the Greeks had been a significant presence in the Middle East for centuries, so it makes sense that there would be some influence.

POD Islamic expansion initially goes West into Byzantine Empire and Europe instead of East into Sassanid Empire and Greater Persia?

Something like that, yeah. Let's say that Constantinople falls to the Arabs ~700 AD. Persia is not fully conquered in this TL so that we can focus more on the effects of a amount of Greek influence.

Could Constantinople become the new capital for the Caliphate? It is a very valuble strategic location (as history has shown time and time again) and it carries a lot of prestige.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Constantinople if conquered would probably be considered a holy city, third or fourth in ranking in Islam.

 

[Atreus]

Constantinople if conquered would probably be considered a holy city, third or fourth in ranking in Islam.

I'm a bit dubious on this point. The three cities that are often cited as the holy cities of Islam are such for a reason. Mecca is Mecca, birthplace of the Prophet, site of the Kabbah, etc... Medina was muhammad's refuge and the first real center of Islam. Jerusalem, in addition to being the most holy city for Jews and Christians (sort of), was the site from which Muhammad ascended into heaven. Then, as with, say, Christianity, there are various other, lesser holy sites with similar rationales (for instance, Karbala as the site of the death of Hussein). Now, Constantinople will certainly be an important city, by virtue of its size, wealth, and location if nothing else. But I can't see why it must be holy to muslims.

 

[carlton_bach]

Umayyad Damascus may be the place to see what a Greek-influenced Islam would look like. Interesting to say the least.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Umayyad Damascus may be the place to see what a Greek-influenced Islam would look like. Interesting to say the least.

Though it will be more Hellenized than that. Syria were basically Semitic-Hellenistic, thus not as Hellenic as Aegean heartland. Better that we take Islamic Persia as an example, only replace Persian Culture with Greek Culture.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Though it will be more Hellenized than that. Syria were basically Semitic-Hellenistic, thus not as Hellenic as Aegean heartland. Better that we take Islamic Persia as an example, only replace Persian Culture with Greek Culture.

Or just Constantinople during the early Ottoman era. That was basically a mix of Islamic and Greek culture [and Slavic too]

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Or just Constantinople during the early Ottoman era. That was basically a mix of Islamic and Greek culture [and Slavic too]

It was mainly Persian-derived with considerable Balkan influences, but mainly Persianic. A muslim Rhomaion will be derived from the later with possible former influence of considerable, but not guaranteed, depends on how Hellenic world got brought to Islamic realm beforehand, certainly.....

 

[Faeelin]

Umayyad Damascus may be the place to see what a Greek-influenced Islam would look like. Interesting to say the least.

Oooh. Anything you can recommend?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_of_Damascus

If you want to see the influence of Byzantine architecture.

 

[8Deer]

In OTL, the early Muslims borrowed a lot of administrative practices from the Sassanids. In this TL, the bureaucracy of the Caliphate would resemble the Byzantine Empire. So instead of Viziers, we have exarchs and strategoi.

Also, would we see names like Isaac ibn Alexios?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

In OTL, the early Muslims borrowed a lot of administrative practices from the Sassanids. In this TL, the bureaucracy of the Caliphate would resemble the Byzantine Empire. So instead of Viziers, we have exarchs and strategoi.

Also, would we see names like Isaac ibn Alexios?

Arabic would have loads of more loanwords from Greek and vice versa.
​

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

I'm a bit dubious on this point. The three cities that are often cited as the holy cities of Islam are such for a reason. Mecca is Mecca, birthplace of the Prophet, site of the Kabbah, etc... Medina was muhammad's refuge and the first real center of Islam. Jerusalem, in addition to being the most holy city for Jews and Christians (sort of), was the site from which Muhammad ascended into heaven. Then, as with, say, Christianity, there are various other, lesser holy sites with similar rationales (for instance, Karbala as the site of the death of Hussein). Now, Constantinople will certainly be an important city, by virtue of its size, wealth, and location if nothing else. But I can't see why it must be holy to muslims.

Mohammed spoke quite a lot about Constantinople, if I recall, so this could be an excuse for whatever Caliph captures the City to make it not only his capital, but a holy city too. A rough and ready translation I found is here.

Constantinople will be conquered. Blessed is the commander who will conquer it, and blessed are his troops (Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 4, 335)

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

So if Constantinople is captured early like say the late 600s, it can hold the place of being the fourth most holiest city in Islam.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Mohammed spoke quite a lot about Constantinople, if I recall, so this could be an excuse for whatever Caliph captures the City to make it not only his capital, but a holy city too. A rough and ready translation I found is here.

And we can be very certain that Mehmed was aware of the hadith you brought. Did he declare Constantinople a Holy City ?

You can't just say it will be holy only because it's conquered much earlier than OTL by the force of Islam. There can may be other, strange reason, if you can bother to find one, to make it an Islamic Holy City, but it will simply require more than just the conquest of the city, nor can such be considered a likely possibility.

Don't be so blinded by the lust for coolness, will you ?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The thing is that Constantinople became a CHRISTIAN holy city, presumably only because the Emperor made it the center of the empire.

Perhaps if Islam becomes the 'Roman Empire Redux', it would be.

Even the Patriarch of Constantinople ended up out-ranking the original patriarchs....

 

[Ridwan Asher]

The thing is that Constantinople became a CHRISTIAN holy city, presumably only because the Emperor made it the center of the empire.

Perhaps if Islam becomes the 'Roman Empire Redux', it would be.

Even the Patriarch of Constantinople ended up out-ranking the original patriarchs....

Not that it will be absolutely impossible but there was no basis for it IOTL. The said basis can be manufactured though. But it is just like Randolph Churchill's Britain won't necessarily lead to Federation of Workers' Republics, but that can happen. As much as the Christening of Karbala as Holy City for Shiites were not inevitable, but can happen as OTL has shown.....

 

[Keenir]

I'm a bit dubious on this point. The three cities that are often cited as the holy cities of Islam are such for a reason. Mecca is Mecca, birthplace of the Prophet, site of the Kabbah, etc... Medina was muhammad's refuge and the first real center of Islam. Jerusalem, in addition to being the most holy city for Jews and Christians (sort of), was the site from which Muhammad ascended into heaven. Then, as with, say, Christianity, there are various other, lesser holy sites with similar rationales (for instance, Karbala as the site of the death of Hussein). Now, Constantinople will certainly be an important city, by virtue of its size, wealth, and location if nothing else. But I can't see why it must be holy to muslims.

maybe it would be holy along the lines of Qom, rather than Mecca?