Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[stevep]

Um, more spread out population and production then requires more spread out transportation....just sayin'....

Glen

Just to say on this point. That is a reason for more transportation being needed but also a reason why it would be more expensive. Longer lines needed to cover the same number of customers. Hence probably a likelihood that the concentration would be on the richer [i.e. more populous] eastern territories. That's where the bigger returns will be on investment.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Just wanted to say I love your timeline! I've always wanted to see something like this, so thank you.

Thank you, thank you very much!

One thing I find particularly interesting is how your British South/American Canada POD is plausibly creating a more Catholic and Secular North America. Kudos.

De nada.

On a side note, I disagree with the notion that there won't be a religious right in this world, but I don't believe TTL's religious right would be Protestant.
Instead, I believe that the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of TTL will be evangelical Catholics for a couple of reasons.
#1. With less discrimination, Catholics won't have as strong of a push to the left like they did in OTL.
#2. Since Deism is already going to be mainstream, American Protestants as a whole should be more to the left. As a result, more conservative Christians might join the Catholic Church on the basis of it being closer to "true Christianity" than the Deist-influenced Protestant churches, which IIRC, is happening OTL among members of the Anglican church.
If the RR does ever form ITTL, I could see Quebec being's the "home base" much like the South is the home base for OTL's Religious right.

I think this is a very good point, and it is entirely possible. As in so many things in life, though, it will be a bit more complicated than that I suspect. However, as of this point in the timeline, I think it is fair to say that the Catholics are among the most 'conservative' of the religions of North America.

In any case, keep up the good work! Peace.

Thank you, I shall endeavor to do so!

 

[Glen]

Ooh, can you point them out for me to look at

Well, as I said this is not a precisely different example, but here we have the flag of the UPCA that has the badge representing the people/region of the world, and the colors of the flag are those of the House of Bourbon.

Cool. Sorted.

Ah yes. That would be a bit too IGy for that time .
And those supporter probably won't work on a flag.

Noted.

Look forward to the next update. Tis always interesting to see how a slight reversal of OTL works.

I am glad to have your patronage and interest. It is indeed interesting to see how we can twist the history of the world....

 

[Glen]

OTL the British attempted to establish Tea Plantations in the 1850's Carolinas. ITTL with a more British Carolinias, I could see this being attempted a couple of Decades earlier.
?Is there a Tea/Coffee divide between the two Nations?

Yes, I think there is! And you know how Southerners like their iced tea!!!

With the Capital being in New York, I see the Hudson Canal being pushed all the way to Lake Erie, Just to link the Capital to the Lakes western travel routes.

It gets pushed to Lake Ontario, but because there is also earlier development of a canal with locks between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, there's no need to push another canal all that way. Consider it a minor alternate route of the Erie canal, but one, obviously, that removes the name Erie from the New York canal serving the same purpose.

Without the Capital at the Navigable limit on the Potomac, Alexandria VA, and Georgetown and Brandenburg MD, remain minor port towns dealing with agricultural goods, [Tobacco Road].

Quite likely, although there is probably still good reason to develop a canal going from the Potomac to the Ohio. But its probably developed a bit later than OTL.

Without the population in the area the discovery of Potomac /Virginia Gold Fields will probably be delayed till the 1850's or even later.
This Means that the Georgia Gold Fields remain the largest NAmerican Fields, till California.
[OTL in the 1840's ~ 1850's Virginia produced more Gold than Georgia]

Hmmm....wow, I wasn't even aware of the Virginia Gold Rush! I will have to weave that into the timeline. While there might not be canal building going on there, and while the general population of the USA is more spread out, the exception is Virginia. Virginia got a population boost as the go to site for a lot of Patriots escaping the South. Also, because a lot of the land was already tied up in plantations, they tended to move to the west....the first gold if wikipedia is right was found in placer deposits....actually, gold is likely to have been found in Virginia pretty close to on time ITTL if not even earlier!

Another interesting point....assuming no major war is fought in Virginia, say by an invasion from the British South, those mines won't be damaged the way they were during the ACW, so will stay in production (though diminishing returns) longer.

?What effect will having most of Americas Gold Supply coming from BNA cause? The Mint in Georgia will be Making British Shillings & Pounds, not US Dollars and Eagles.

That would have been interesting, but I think we'll not see it for the reasons given above.

 

[Glen]

Glen

Just to say on this point. That is a reason for more transportation being needed but also a reason why it would be more expensive. Longer lines needed to cover the same number of customers. Hence probably a likelihood that the concentration would be on the richer [i.e. more populous] eastern territories. That's where the bigger returns will be on investment.

Steve

That is a fair point for the early, predominantly private capital driven development. However, Congress will promote interstate rail the way they did interstate canals. And once they build it, it will allow for increasing production and trade, which in turn will increase revenues, etc....

 

[AJNolte]

it is fair to say that the Catholics are among the most 'conservative' of the religions of North America.

Among the most conservative, but, mein Freund, unless you butterfly it away, you're do for a major influx of really conservative Lutherans from Saxony into the US around the 1830s and 1840s. OTL they will form the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. They remained so conservative partially by withdrawing from mainstream English Protestantism, a tactic also embraced by other Lutheran churches (see Charles Porterfield Krautth, who will almost certainly be butterflied, but for whom there will probably be an analogous figure). You're likely to see a split in Lutherans, with the more liberal English-speaking current taking on some Deist ideas while the more conservative types retain their German language and say "nein" to Deist influences. Initially, Pennsylvania would be the hot-bed of this controversy, as the heartland of German Lutheran settlement. As the Germans move west (and as the contingent from Saxony arrives, if you have them arrive and don't send them somewhere else), the German-speaking Lutherans will become some of the country's most conservative Protestants.
This may have political implications as well. Much later OTL, around the 1890s, there was a big flap in Wisconsin about forcing all schooling to be done in English. Catholic and Protestant German-speakers revolted, and kicked out the Republican state government which pushed this initiative. If, just as an example, Federalists in Pennsylvania were to push for monolingual schooling, I could see the Lutherans revolt and kick them out of office. But, come to think of it, it'll be even easier ITTL for the German communities to keep their language given the presence of the French in Quebec, and the precedent they'll set.
Could be interesting times.

 

[Glen]

Among the most conservative, but, mein Freund, unless you butterfly it away, you're do for a major influx of really conservative Lutherans from Saxony into the US around the 1830s and 1840s. OTL they will form the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. They remained so conservative partially by withdrawing from mainstream English Protestantism, a tactic also embraced by other Lutheran churches (see Charles Porterfield Krautth, who will almost certainly be butterflied, but for whom there will probably be an analogous figure).

I have to look up that migration's causes, though I am certainly familiar with the history of Lutheranism in America after arrival (my one cousin is a minister in the liberal branch of Lutheranism, and another cousin is part of the Missouri Synod). I suspect it will still occur, and I also suspect they will isolate themselves to a degree much like OTL, though where they will end up may be a bit different, I'll have to check on that.

You're likely to see a split in Lutherans, with the more liberal English-speaking current taking on some Deist ideas while the more conservative types retain their German language and say "nein" to Deist influences.Initially, Pennsylvania would be the hot-bed of this controversy, as the heartland of German Lutheran settlement. As the Germans move west (and as the contingent from Saxony arrives, if you have them arrive and don't send them somewhere else), the German-speaking Lutherans will become some of the country's most conservative Protestants. This may have political implications as well.

I agree with that completely.

Much later OTL, around the 1890s, there was a big flap in Wisconsin about forcing all schooling to be done in English. Catholic and Protestant German-speakers revolted, and kicked out the Republican state government which pushed this initiative. If, just as an example, Federalists in Pennsylvania were to push for monolingual schooling, I could see the Lutherans revolt and kick them out of office. But, come to think of it, it'll be even easier ITTL for the German communities to keep their language given the presence of the French in Quebec, and the precedent they'll set.
Could be interesting times.

Not to mention the fact that TTL's First Amendment includes no establishment of language along with religion. It remains to be seen if the First Amendment rights against the Federal government will end up getting applied to the State governments ITTL the way they did IOTL.

However, having said that, English is well established in this USA as a lingua franca (ironically), though a much higher porportion of Americans ITTL are going to be bilingual, I suspect.

 

[AJNolte]

I have to look up that migration's causes, though I am certainly familiar with the history of Lutheranism in America after arrival (my one cousin is a minister in the liberal branch of Lutheranism, and another cousin is part of the Missouri Synod). I suspect it will still occur, and I also suspect they will isolate themselves to a degree much like OTL, though where they will end up may be a bit different, I'll have to check on that.
Not to mention the fact that TTL's First Amendment includes no establishment of language along with religion. It remains to be seen if the First Amendment rights against the Federal government will end up getting applied to the State governments ITTL the way they did IOTL.

However, having said that, English is well established in this USA as a lingua franca (ironically), though a much higher porportion of Americans ITTL are going to be bilingual, I suspect.

Nice. I grew up ECA and was in the LCMS a bit in college, so I know it well also. CF Walther is a bit late for TTL, but this guy may not have been butterflied, depending on how generous you're being with the butterfly effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Stephan
The Saxon immigrants drew a lot of German churches into their orbet over time.
First Amendment: forgot about that. You know, you had a lot of interesting little groups end up in Canada: Ukraneans, Russian Menonites and the like. If there's a constitutional ban on a federally established language, you may see these settlers (not to mention the Scandinavians and later waves of Eastern Europeans) retain their culture pretty strongly.

 

[President Sam Houston]

Jeez...I go away for a couple of weeks while my wife and I have a baby, and when I come back, 8 full pages of posts with many interesting arguments and points of view. Glen you have put together the best timeline I have seen in the last 6+ months. Keep up the good work.

 

[Glen]

Nice. I grew up ECA and was in the LCMS a bit in college, so I know it well also. CF Walther is a bit late for TTL, but this guy may not have been butterflied, depending on how generous you're being with the butterfly effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Stephan

My last post was eaten by the internet gremlins.

Martin Stephan born far enough away early enough to likely still be born ITTL.

The Saxon immigrants drew a lot of German churches into their orbet over time.

Yep, they sure did!

First Amendment: forgot about that. You know, you had a lot of interesting little groups end up in Canada: Ukraneans, Russian Menonites and the like. If there's a constitutional ban on a federally established language, you may see these settlers (not to mention the Scandinavians and later waves of Eastern Europeans) retain their culture pretty strongly.

Indeed, even more likely to be the Big Stew rather than the Melting Pot (though maybe not). English still winning out as the lingua franca (ironically) but the rate of bilingualism much higher in this USA.

However, monolingualism is the rule in most of British Southern America mainland, and is even starting to become more common in the Caribbean and Guyana.

 

[Glen]

Jeez...I go away for a couple of weeks while my wife and I have a baby,

First of all, congratulations! What are the stats on the baby?

and when I come back, 8 full pages of posts

We've tried to keep the timeline humming along.

with many interesting arguments and points of view. Glen you have put together the best timeline I have seen in the last 6+ months. Keep up the good work.

Thank you so much for your very kind words! Bring friends!!

 

[Glen]

The year 1835 was when everything came to a head in the South, starting in Georgia.

Discontent had been growing in the Province of Georgia over the continued dispute over mining in Cherokee Georgia. The British government refused to allow the Georgians remove the Cherokee and other tribes on lands believed to hold gold. The British governor of Georgia, Matthew Whitworth-Aylmer tried to enforce the British ruling on the issue against an increasingly hostile Georgia populace and assembly. When in 1835 abolition was passed, Aylmer thought it an extremely generous offer to the slave owners, given the fact that slaves were to serve a 10 year apprenticeship before full freedom, and slaveowners who wished to emancipate their slaves early would be compensated by the crown. However, a strident faction in Georgia, and in fact throughout the South, opposed even that much. Assemblies throughout British Southern America passed resolutions calling on Parliament to repeal the abolition. Slaveowners who took the Crown's shilling to release their blacks were threatened in many cases, and sometimes even killed, by nightriders. Some plantation owners who were willing to take the fee for early manumission started to take the unprecedented step of then arming their most reliable former slaves to serve as a ready-made militia willing to protect their former masters and in the process protect their own newfound freedom.

While during the American Revolutionary War Georgia had been one of the more loyal colonies of Britain, the decades had changed the state, with many South Carolinians of questionable loyalty to the crown moving into the region as planters. As the chaos in the province grew, Governor Aylmer dissolved the Georgia Assembly. The Georgians refused to disperse, and met in defiance of the order to declare Georgian independence from Britain. South Carolina followed suit, and then others....

 

[Plumber]

There is a rule that South Carolina must declare independence/secede before any other state does!

Now the shit has hit the fan... this should be interesting in the Chinese sense. It's a shame that John C. Calhoun probably was butterflied out of existence... Wonder who will be leading the Southern rebels ITTL.

EDIT: Ooh, found some good ones born early enough: William Smith, Thomas Cooper
Of course, Calhoun could have been born still, but unlikely.

 

[The Professor]

Well, as I said this is not a precisely different example, but here we have the flag of the UPCA that has the badge representing the people/region of the world, and the colors of the flag are those of the House of Bourbon.

Well, based on the Argentine flag based on Bourbon colours . I would submit that being so distant from the Bourbons helped since the revolutionaries wanted independence from the Governors rather than the King but still interesting that they did so. And does provide a precedent, even if just for the region.
Of course having the colours of the Virgin Mary helps.

I am glad to have your patronage and interest. It is indeed interesting to see how we can twist the history of the world....

Cheers. I'll try not to nitpick quite so much

 

[Glen]

There is a rule that South Carolina must declare independence/secede before any other state does!

Sorry, but they were really, really close to next, and they've got a lot of Carolinians down in Georgia, and stuff....

Now the shit has hit the fan... this should be interesting in the Chinese sense.[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes it does!

It's a shame that John C. Calhoun probably was butterflied out of existence...

Probably not, given their location.

Wonder who will be leading the Southern rebels ITTL.

EDIT: Ooh, found some good ones born early enough: William Smith

A real possibility.

, Thomas Cooper
Of course, Calhoun could have been born still, but unlikely.

He'd go to the USA ITTL, not the British Southern America.

 

[Splatter123]

Hooray for Revolution .

what will be the US response to this? I'm sure they will want to stick it to Britain, but they will probably be less interested in supporting slavery.

 

[Glen]

Well, based on the Argentine flag based on Bourbon colours . I would submit that being so distant from the Bourbons helped since the revolutionaries wanted independence from the Governors rather than the King but still interesting that they did so. And does provide a precedent, even if just for the region.
Of course having the colours of the Virgin Mary helps.

Agree with all the above.

Cheers. I'll try not to nitpick quite so much

Don't you dare! If there's something that you think is bringing down the quality or believability of the timeline, please do speak up. The only thing I ask of my critics (call them volunteer editors) is that they take their critiques and make useful suggestions on how to alter or expand the timeline entries to make them stronger in a way that minimizes changes to the intent of the original.

 

[Glen]

Hooray for Revolution .

what will be the US response to this? I'm sure they will want to stick it to Britain, but they will probably be less interested in supporting slavery.

You shall see....

 

[Falastur]

The title of the thread suggests that the British will win the war and find an acceptable solution to this. However, at present it doesn't seem like the resulting peace is going to be very acceptable to the Southerners. I'm hoping that the slave-owners who took the King's shilling are a bigger minority than it seems currently, and hopefully the powerful middle classes will come out of the woodwork to support and join the loyal militias, and all in all break the power of the slaveocrats so that BSA doesn't continue to hold a grudge.

On the plus side, with the free blacks being armed for their protection it does suggest a good accommodation package at the end of the war, unlike the last time - they're setting the example (again) that they can fight on an equal level with the white settlers.

Come to think of it, I'll tell you what this TL needs (in my humble opinion) that I don't think I've seen anyone else try: it needs a story of heroism at the crunch point of the war with a black regiment marching at a critical time to save a key regular British army from being cut off, or something, thus letting both white and black people say honestly that the black soldiers were of utmost importance in winning the war. That, or a black soldier saving a British general in the style of Richard Sharpe (of the Bernard Cornwell novels) or something. That would be great and hopefully it would do wonders for racial equality in the years following, just like the British took a very healthy respect for the Sikhs when the Sikhs matched them for skill in battle time and again in the 1830s.

 

[AJNolte]

And...here we go...
Now, couple questions:
1. Did the Caribbean dominions of the DSA declare independence as well? That will impact the British greatly, particularly if the Caribbean secessionists were able to seize any of the ships of the Caribbean squadron.
2. If, as is generally expected, the revolution fails, where will the irreconcilables go? The US won't want them and the British won't want to keep them in the area. Hmm, I suspect a lot of ex-planters are making that long, long trip to Botany Bay if the revolution fails.
"Oh my heart, my heart is in Dixy,
Though I languish in Botany Bay."
Of course, if the revolution succeeds, what happens to the loyalists, and free blacks?
My suspicion: a much, much bigger Sierra Leone for the free blacks, and the loyalist planters will go...to the Cape colony? Do the Brits still have that ITTL?