Patton in Korea/MacArthur in the White House

[ThirdyLovesAH]

You know something that I just realized? Considering that thanks to Patton, UN forces were able to push into North Korea a lot quicker, the levels and intensity of bombing campaign against the country would likely not have been as heavy compared to OTL, in which an estimated 85% of the country's buildings were razed.

Meaning that the northern parts of Korea will retain a lot more of their colonial-era infrastructure that were set up by the Japanese. Take the Sup'ung Dam that I have mentioned from earlier, for example, with it being the largest hydroelectric dam in Asia at the time, which in OTL was not targeted for bombing until May 1953 (As a reminder, we are still in November 1950 right now). This means that unless the Chinese managed to push the UN all the way back to the 38 parallel, in addition to holding onto much more land and control a larger population, the ROK should be able to industrialize much quicker and easier, given them a much stronger economy and higher standards of living depending on how quickly the government in Seoul can get their corruption problem under control, and secure countries that they can export to.

The idea of there being a much earlier Miracle on the Han River right on the PRC and the USSR's doorstep will certainly have some very interesting implications on how the rest of the Cold War would develop. Especially in the case of the former, assuming the famine caused by the Great Leap Forward still happens.

And as a lover of history, I really like the idea of cities in northern Korea beyond just Kaesong managing to retain their historical buildings without having to be rebuilt almost totally from the ground-up.

More prosperous Korea? That is based.

 

[Sam R.]

I commend to the budding economic historians the comparative development of the different governed areas in Korea to 1980. The ROK elite have a great big capacity to fuck things up. Also they’ll face the historical endemic _c_ommunism of their trade unions.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Read the TL, and I think it's reasonably good even if I think Patton is a bit more prescient at times then he would have actually been

Perhaps. If it is, well, all in the name of a good story I'd rather it this way than just do "Walton Walker but with more swearing".

I really hope this TL doesn't do Ridgeway dirty like that. The man was one of the US's finest commanders in the 20th century.

I'm not intending to run a dump truck over his reputation, so no need to worry about that.

A sniper, firing at a non-moving target in the open, and he misses center-of-mass, that much, twice?

But I think I can explain it. The sniper fired from very long range - 800-1,200 meters. He underestimated the drop across that distance. (Which would be about 5 meters - he's about 0.5 meter off. His sights are probably not well calibrated for such long range.) And he fired the second shot while the first shot was still in the air. (An AK-47 round would take 1 to 1.5 seconds to travel that far.)

Or perhaps it could be two snipers together, both using the same incorrect estimation for the distance?

Seeing as the most explanation I ever came up with was 'those two Chinese weren't very good shots', I'm happy to go with this Consider the two person version canon.

You know something that I just realized? Considering that thanks to Patton, UN forces were able to push into North Korea a lot quicker, the levels and intensity of bombing campaign against the country would likely not have been as heavy compared to OTL, in which an estimated 85% of the country's buildings were razed.

Meaning that the northern parts of Korea will retain a lot more of their colonial-era infrastructure that were set up by the Japanese. Take the Sup'ung Dam that I have mentioned from earlier, for example, with it being the largest hydroelectric dam in Asia at the time, which in OTL was not targeted for bombing until May 1953 (As a reminder, we are still in November 1950 right now). This means that unless the Chinese managed to push the UN all the way back to the 38 parallel, in addition to holding onto much more land and control a larger population, the ROK should be able to industrialize much quicker and easier, given them a much stronger economy and higher standards of living depending on how quickly the government in Seoul can get their corruption problem under control, and secure countries that they can export to.

The idea of there being a much earlier Miracle on the Han River right on the PRC and the USSR's doorstep will certainly have some very interesting implications on how the rest of the Cold War would develop. Especially in the case of the former, assuming the famine caused by the Great Leap Forward still happens.

And as a lover of history, I really like the idea of cities in northern Korea beyond just Kaesong managing to retain their historical buildings without having to be rebuilt almost totally from the ground-up.

I always like AHs with more prosperity going around

- BNC

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Some appropriate music for the TL, @BiteNibbleChomp , the sentiment of which Patton would have loved

 

[Xenophonte]

Some appropriate music for the TL, @BiteNibbleChomp , the sentiment of which Patton would have loved

I think that he would have loved, this or this, too.

 

[chankljp]

I commend to the budding economic historians the comparative development of the different governed areas in Korea to 1980. The ROK elite have a great big capacity to fuck things up. Also they’ll face the historical endemic _c_ommunism of their trade unions.

I always like AHs with more prosperity going around

I am under no illusion that the First Republic under Syngman Rhee's government is a corrupted, oppressive, authoritarian mess, and that the conditions of the ROK in TTL will be nothing like the Fifth and Sixth Republic, in which South Korea started to really economically prosper.

Nonetheless, thanks to Patton's rapid advances, the Korean peninsula as a whole is lot less devastated in TTL compared to OTL, which would have laid the ground work for the now enlarged ROK to start their industrialisation process much sooner. Plus, with the vastly reduced rump DPRK, the overall amount of human suffering in TTL would have be much lower even if the ROK ended up going more or less the same path as OTL as they go from one military dictatorship to another until the 1980s.

 

[marktaha]

How many republics have.they had?

I am under no illusion that the First Republic under Syngman Rhee's government is a corrupted, oppressive, authoritarian mess, and that the conditions of the ROK in TTL will be nothing like the Fifth and Sixth Republic, in which South Korea started to really economically prosper.

Nonetheless, thanks to Patton's rapid advances, the Korean peninsula as a whole is lot less devastated in TTL compared to OTL, which would have laid the ground work for the now enlarged ROK to start their industrialisation process much sooner. Plus, with the vastly reduced rump DPRK, the overall amount of human suffering in TTL would have be much lower even if the ROK ended up going more or less the same path as OTL as they go from one military dictatorship to another until the 1980s.

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

ROK should be able to industrialize much quicker and easier, given them a much stronger economy and higher standards of living

If they hold at the mountainous regions, they will own of the largest rare earth minerals, which will help them to industrialize and boost their economy.

 

[chankljp]

How many republics have.they had?

The ROK is currently on their Sixth Republic, which has been in power since 1988.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Some appropriate music for the TL, @BiteNibbleChomp , the sentiment of which Patton would have loved

Music for the second Patton movie ITTL? (Yes, there's two of them - I refuse to cut any of the scenes from the original other than the last couple! Obviously, those don't happen because he's retired by then)

I think that he would have loved, this or this, too.

That second one made me think - I wonder if he was reincarnated and then ended up fighting in Vietnam? If he was reborn in 1946-7 he'd be old enough to go there.

- BNC

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

Wow, just caught up with this TL. Really brilliant.
Amazing job BNC-- I look forward to more.

 

[SeaBos]

Random shower thought: assuming that the DPRK survives in the Kanggye pocket China is likely going to push for some kind of promise that American troops stay a certain distance south of the borders, this could end up backfiring. If North Korean soldiers have to take orders from Chinese 'friends and advisors' only to look across the DMZ and see fellow Koreans managing themselves it might get certain nationalist ideas in their heads. Also North Korea won't work as well as a name seeing as these borders would have South Korea spanning not only to the south of their communist brethren but also further east and north, Northwest Korea is arguably a better name but my bet is the non-communist world will refer to Kanggye as Chinese Korea, regardless of whether or not they are technically independent of the PRC.

 

[m0585]

This is an excellent TL! Please keep up the stellar work!

 

[marktaha]

Music for the second Patton movie ITTL? (Yes, there's two of them - I refuse to cut any of the scenes from the original other than the last couple! Obviously, those don't happen because he's retired by then)


That second one made me think - I wonder if he was reincarnated and then ended up fighting in Vietnam? If he was reborn in 1946-7 he'd be old enough to go there.

- BNC

His son did.

 

[Bloodraven]

I'm unsure if this question has been adressed in the TL or the discussion but has Patton done anything regarding the massacres of suspected communists by South Korean forces, including the OTL massacres after Seoul was recaptured in which an estimated 30.000 South Koreans were summarily killed for 'collaboration' by South Korean forces (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre )?

 

[Turrosh Mak]

I'm unsure if this question has been adressed in the TL or the discussion but has Patton done anything regarding the massacres of suspected communists by South Korean forces, including the OTL massacres after Seoul was recaptured in which an estimated 30.000 South Koreans were summarily killed for 'collaboration' by South Korean forces (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre)?

It was mentioned that the US let the Koreans take care of the communist remnants/guerillas/infiltrators in their rear after Chromite. I doubt the US cared what happened to NORKS and their fellow travellers after finding their POWS executed. It was a brutal war.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Wow, just caught up with this TL. Really brilliant.
Amazing job BNC-- I look forward to more.

This is an excellent TL! Please keep up the stellar work!

Many thanks

Random shower thought: assuming that the DPRK survives in the Kanggye pocket China is likely going to push for some kind of promise that American troops stay a certain distance south of the borders, this could end up backfiring. If North Korean soldiers have to take orders from Chinese 'friends and advisors' only to look across the DMZ and see fellow Koreans managing themselves it might get certain nationalist ideas in their heads. Also North Korea won't work as well as a name seeing as these borders would have South Korea spanning not only to the south of their communist brethren but also further east and north, Northwest Korea is arguably a better name but my bet is the non-communist world will refer to Kanggye as Chinese Korea, regardless of whether or not they are technically independent of the PRC.

north korea resources at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Based on this map of NK's resources and industry, I'm really not sure that the Kanggye pocket is really a viable nation - it has almost none of OTL NK's mineral wealth, no ports and not that many people. My thoughts are that if the communists want to hold the land, the PRC would just annex it rather than spend the next several decades bankrolling a crippled state.
Interesting thoughts though!

I'm unsure if this question has been adressed in the TL or the discussion but has Patton done anything regarding the massacres of suspected communists by South Korean forces, including the OTL massacres after Seoul was recaptured in which an estimated 30.000 South Koreans were summarily killed for 'collaboration' by South Korean forces (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre )?

It was mentioned that the US let the Koreans take care of the communist remnants/guerillas/infiltrators in their rear after Chromite. I doubt the US cared what happened to NORKS and their fellow travellers after finding their POWS executed. It was a brutal war.

Yeah, Patton's approach is basically "not my problem, give it to Rhee to deal with". The North Koreans only captured a handful of Americans ITTL, and Patton doesn't really care about anyone else.

- BNC

 

[Bloodraven]

It was mentioned that the US let the Koreans take care of the communist remnants/guerillas/infiltrators in their rear after Chromite. I doubt the US cared what happened to NORKS and their fellow travellers after finding their POWS executed. It was a brutal war.

Yeah, Patton's approach is basically "not my problem, give it to Rhee to deal with". The North Koreans only captured a handful of Americans ITTL, and Patton doesn't really care about anyone else.

Makes sense, neither the North nor the South Koreans were fighting anything approaching a war according to the Geneva Convention and the US didn't care much about South Korean war crimes IOTL (in contrast, the British protested and in some cases even tried to stop the atrocities).
With the Korean War much more prominent ITTL and with Patton as the hero of the war, revisionist historians will likely drag Patton's indifference to South Korean war crimes (which could be construed as encouragement; plus the contrast to the conduct of his British allies), his conduct regarding the civilian population (mules and all) and his disregard for South Korean military casualties (using them as bait and cannon fodder) into the spotlight decades later (maybe 70s or 80s) after decades of Patton hagiographies (if Patton doesn't enter politics and fucks things up, in which case much more critical biographies will appear earlier) and the debate about how to judge Patton's role in the Korean War will likely continue to this day, possibly with additional charges of Patton being a racist and not caring about Asian (Korean) lives brought up later.

 

[Bloodraven]

Based on this map of NK's resources and industry, I'm really not sure that the Kanggye pocket is really a viable nation - it has almost none of OTL NK's mineral wealth, no ports and not that many people. My thoughts are that if the communists want to hold the land, the PRC would just annex it rather than spend the next several decades bankrolling a crippled state.

Maintaining a barebones North Korean state gives the Chinese the propaganda oppurtunity of saving North Korea from total annexation (with plenty of rhetoric about the socialist Korean renaissance that will inevitable one day come; plus the Chinese intervention was IIRC accompanied by rhetoric of support for Korea and annexing Korean territory makes them look really bad), it gives them North Korean stooges that can loudly complain and campaign against 'American imperialist aggression' (whitewashing that it was North Korea who started the war and portraying themselves as victims) whomever listens to them in the third world, plus not annexing the territory doesn't piss off the Korean people and opens up possibilities of stirring up trouble in Korea later by supporting left-wing groups (annexation would much reduce the appeal of Chinese support for these groups), plus it serves as a buffer state.
After all, the Chinese intervened to keep the Americans away from their border at the Yalu, which is why IMO the Chinese will hard to dislodge American and South Korean troops from the border, including towards Hyesan, and if that doesn't work push aggressively in negotations for a North Korean buffer state that stretches across the whole Chinese-Korean border or at the very least for demilitarization of the Korean border provinces and possibly an agreement that no American soldiers will be stationed above the 38th parallel, and depending on the success of the war at that point the US government, if it isn't President MacArthur at the helm, might agree to the second demand (a much wider DMZ and maybe no American soldiers north of the 38th parallel) to end the war and deescalate tensions with China.
Also, China won't be alone in propping up rump North Korea financially, the Soviets will likely also chip in.

 

[kent]

agree with others an excellent time line