Keynes' Cruisers

[RyderWest]

I wonder how much intel the Japanese have on Wake.

They did have patrol planes coming out of the Marshalls, so they are not totally blind....

But they did still attack Wake IOTL with coastal artillery of the light kind. They knew about the airfield, but not about the coastal stuff.

 

[Crowbar Six]

ah... FWIW, I had a neighbor(an older vet, dad's age in fact) who I used to get together with and drink a couple beers on Veterans Day and other such occasions. He had been a cook in the USN, from 39 on to the end of the war. He had also been a gun captain on one ship in particular where he had a 1.1" mount, which he dearly loved. I will have to add to my bucket list to investigate via written material (as there are so few left to actually ask) about this gun, and just how good or bad it was.

Best place to look is here

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/?start=Start+Reading+>>

The guy who runs it works for Janes and is an expert on small arms, autocannon and large calibre

 

[Oldbill]

Thanks Crowbar!

 

[Crowbar Six]

Thanks Crowbar!

I am sure there was a thread a few years ago about the USN 1.1". There might be something in Anthony G Williams book Rapid Fire (it's out of print) - the US .90 and 1.1" are listed in Chapter 5

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/miltech.htm

 

[sloreck]

I wonder how many PBYs are at Guam, and any other aircraft. I would hope that when war breaks out, just like the Marines who were evacuated, any aircraft at Guam not destroyed in any initial attacks, get out of Dodge and head to Wake. Unless Skippy the ASB takes a hand the first Japanese assault on Wake will be cut to pieces - not just the landing parties but also many of the ships that brought them there and the supporting NGF force. The air element on Wake will do better, but the numbers against them will show - however with good radar, better facilities they will last longer and cost the Japanese more aircraft and especially trained aircrew than OTL. Be nice to know what air assets the Japanese have within range - availability of carrier support is very iffy especially since the PH strike is going to cost the Japanese more aircraft and aircrew than OTL and the need for mobile (carrier) air assets for the southern resource area offensive which is a much greater priority than taking Wake.

Given how the Allies are better prepared in so many ways than OTL, and that OTL the Japanese drew to an inside straight flush during the first six months of the war, I can't see any way Wake does not hold. It is simply not important enough to divert resources the Japanese won't have to overcome a position that would, even if all other actions go as OTL, require a good deal more effort than it did OTL. Once Wake holds, the submarine basing will be accelerated which will be a plus for the USN (if the torpedoes work!).

 

[jsb]

with five coastal defense batteries in steel reinforced concrete turrets

Would be interesting to guess how many guns and what of what size,

OTL they had, three batteries with six 5-inch (130 mm)/51 cal pieces, in open pedestal mounts originating from the old battleship USS Texas.

We know ITTL at least a one twin 8"? What else, 4 more "batteries" of "turrets" in OTL each CD battery in OTL had two Mark 15 5"/51 guns so we could expect 8 more guns? The issue is what does "turret" mean and what size guns?

Actual turret mounts would have to be new build and very expensive but could they count old casement mounts set into concrete?

I assume the 8" are the largest gun on the island, as moving in larger ones would be hard and it would make the battle a very one sides shoot out?

The USN had in its old gun collection,
8"/45 (20.3 cm) Mark 6 = This would be the best they had about 60 of them from WWI it should kill anything relatively well. I think the original PD BB twin mount have been scraped other wise this would be prefect but they would work in single casements. would it be overkill?
7"/44 (17.8 cm) Mark 1 and 7"/45 (17.8 cm) Mark 2 = old casement guns that would also kill any cruiser relatively well.
6"/50 or 53 (15.2 cm) Mark 6, 8, 12, 14, 15 and 18 = Available in reasonable numbers, casement guns that would still not be fun to be hit by.
Lots of 5" types, such as the OTL Mark 15 5"/51 guns = this would be the easiest to install like OTL or better protected?

 

[sloreck]

here they have some 8" turrets removed from carriers, as well as other repurposed naval guns.

 

[fester]

here they have some 8" turrets removed from carriers, as well as other repurposed naval guns.

Yep, 2x2 8 inch guns from Lexington and
3x2 5 51 guns from a standard bb

 

[Butchpfd]

Yep, 2x2 8 inch guns from Lexington and
3x2 5 51 guns from a standard bb

IMO, in is too bad Marines and Navy depended on 3" 50 cal for Base AA,I would have gone with a 5"25 cal. as and surface targets.

 

[fester]

December 2, 1941 1300 Manila Time aboard Bluebird 6


"How much longer, Ted?

"Give me a minute ell tee" Ensign Ted Sullivan laconically replied as he buried his head into his maps. This was his ninth operational flight in "Fannie Mae", a new PBY Catalina belonging to Patrol Squadron 102 (VP-102). He had passed the navigator course at Pensacola in the bottom of his class, but with a big, slow patrol plane that was doing its best to avoid being seen, he had time to figure out where Fannie Mae and her crew were. It helped that they were flying the same patrol today as yesterday, out 500 miles to the southwest from Manila into the East China Sea.

"Well boss, I figure we have another forty five minutes on this heading and then we'll dogleg south for twenty minutes before returning home"

"Sounds good, as we've seen nothing besides junks and fishing sampans, I don't mind the flying as it beats writing evaluations and requisitions that won't be filled, but I don't know what the brass thinks we'll find out here"

The engines droned on as the observers scanned the sea for anything more interesting than local fishing boats plying their trade in a world still at relative peace. There was some excitement several months ago as a German raider had sunk a trio of British merchants before disappearing back into the vastness of the deep blue waters of the Pacific, but since then, there were no hostile acts.

"My ass and back is getting sore, Bob, you have the stick"

"Co-pilot has the aircraft"

Lt. (jg) Dan "Stretch" O'Neil got out of the slightly padded seat and stretched his 6 foot 5 inch frame as well as he could in the Consolidated's cabin. The Catalina was a large aircraft but not large enough for him to work out the kink in his back. He walked back to the rear of the cabin to talk to his gunner/observers and do a few push-ups to loosen up his tense back.

"LT, look at that" Airman 2nd Class Robert Anderson pointed out the observation window down at the airplane's 10 o'clock.

A submarine was on the surface, smoke blowing from its diesel engine as it moved along the surface at high speed. The wake was long and pronounced, visible for miles from the air.

"Send this back to base, we'll get closer and get a good visual identification, Ed, how much loiter time do we have before we're cutting it too close to get home?"

"Three hours if we're in a max loiter configuration boss"

 

[RyderWest]

So Ted Sullivan will be at Manila when the Japanese invade....

Poor sod.

 

[fester]

December 2, 1941 1500 Hong Kong

Seventeen merchant ships, including three Soviet vessels had steamed past the 9.2 inch gun position by mid-afternoon. Most of the ships were riding high, and a few still had dock workers aboard completing last minute repairs.

The Soviet vessels were heading to Vladivostok while European flagged vessels and the Americans were heading to a variety of ports in the East Indies and Malaya. The masters of the ships had seen the British evacuate as much military capability as possible plus they could smell war in the air. Slow merchant ships could not hold up against field artillery fire, distance would be their best protection, distance from combat, distance from searchers, distance from the thunder rumbling pat the horizon as the gust front of violence had started to blow through the East China Sea’s littorals.

 

[fester]

December 2, 1941 1510 Manilla Time aboard Bluebird 6

"I think we know what the brass thought we would see, boss"

"Yep, 9 Jap submarines heading southwest as fast as they can... this has to be a big deal"

"When will Bluebird 9 and Raven 11 get here, Stretch??"

"Bluebird 9 is 10 minutes out, Raven 11 is another hour or so"

"Okay, we'll circle for another 15 minutes and hand this trail to Bunny and his crew before we head home... good job, the first beer will be on me after we get Fannie ready for tomorrow as I have a feeling we'll be doing a lot more flying in the next week"

 

[Ramp-Rat]

December 2, 1941 1500 Hong Kong

Seventeen merchant ships, including three Soviet vessels had steamed past the 9.2 inch gun position by mid-afternoon. Most of the ships were riding high, and a few still had dock workers aboard completing last minute repairs.

The Soviet vessels were heading to Vladivostok while European flagged vessels and the Americans were heading to a variety of ports in the East Indies and Malaya. The masters of the ships had seen the British evacuate as much military capability as possible plus they could smell war in the air. Slow merchant ships could not hold up against field artillery fire, distance would be their best protection, distance from combat, distance from searchers, distance from the thunder rumbling pat the horizon as the gust front of violence had started to blow through the East China Sea’s littorals.

Things are building up nicely, but I do have a small nit pick. I doubt that Soviet vessels could move without orders from Moscow, Soviet captains just didn't have that degree of autonomy. Most of the other merchant ships, can after consultation with the local agent, providing there isn't a cargo to be moved, set sail. And I don't believe that Soviet ships are at risk, if memory serves me right, Soviet flagged vessels sailed in and out of Vladivostok with war cargos from America throughout the war.


RR.

 

[RyderWest]

December 2, 1941 1500 Hong Kong

Seventeen merchant ships, including three Soviet vessels had steamed past the 9.2 inch gun position by mid-afternoon. Most of the ships were riding high, and a few still had dock workers aboard completing last minute repairs.

The Soviet vessels were heading to Vladivostok while European flagged vessels and the Americans were heading to a variety of ports in the East Indies and Malaya. The masters of the ships had seen the British evacuate as much military capability as possible plus they could smell war in the air. Slow merchant ships could not hold up against field artillery fire, distance would be their best protection, distance from combat, distance from searchers, distance from the thunder rumbling pat the horizon as the gust front of violence had started to blow through the East China Sea’s littorals.

So the Merchant Ships, presumably carrying lots of people, are also saying screw this I am out of here.

December 2, 1941 1510 Manilla Time aboard Bluebird 6

"I think we know what the brass thought we would see, boss"

"Yep, 9 Jap submarines heading southwest as fast as they can... this has to be a big deal"

"When will Bluebird 9 and Raven 11 get here, Stretch??"

"Bluebird 9 is 10 minutes out, Raven 11 is another hour or so"

"Okay, we'll circle for another 15 minutes and hand this trail to Bunny and his crew before we head home... good job, the first beer will be on me after we get Fannie ready for tomorrow as I have a feeling we'll be doing a lot more flying in the next week"

It seem's Sullivan's plane has spotted the Japanese sub scout force.....

 

[Killer in]

The key difference here is that all sides are preparing much more for the possibility of war so at least in the case of the British there is slot less panic scramble to get home defence forces out of the country. With all that's changed the only major improvement would be that Ark was already in the Far East

 

[fester]

Things are building up nicely, but I do have a small nit pick. I doubt that Soviet vessels could move without orders from Moscow, Soviet captains just didn't have that degree of autonomy. Most of the other merchant ships, can after consultation with the local agent, providing there isn't a cargo to be moved, set sail. And I don't believe that Soviet ships are at risk, if memory serves me right, Soviet flagged vessels sailed in and out of Vladivostok with war cargos from America throughout the war.


RR.

Three Soviet flagged ships were sunk/destroyed in Hong Kong harbor either because of accidental artillery bombardment, bombs missing intended targets or indifference. Several other Soviet ships were lost in the first month of the Pacific war due to mis-identification.

In my mind, the British port authorities in Hong Kong are reacting to a war warning by clearing the harbor. They know that they can not hold the colony so their actions are harm minimization actions which means getting anything that can float out to safety and then scuttling/sabotaging anything that can not flee. The Soviet ships were told, in my mind, get out now. Moscow was told by the British Lend Lease mission to get their ships out. Those ships may be going to see with full lights on and in the clear hourly radio broadcasts of their position but they are trying to get away from a possibly active war zone.

 

[fester]

December 3, 1941 0000 EST

The United States declared that the US Navy as well as Filipino units operating in conjunction with the US Navy would begin to mine US and Philippine territorial waters effective immediately.

 

[fester]

December 3, 1941 1100 Wake Island


USS Gamble and Tracy were bobbing along off the southwestern shore of Wake Island several hundred yards outside of the reef. The pair of old destroyers were laying several minefields under the watchful eyes of the Marines manning the coast defense batteries.

These mines would not stop a determined invasion. Instead Major Devereux wanted these mines to either delay an assault as minesweepers would need to slowly clear a safe pathway or force an assault into a pair of known and well covered channels. 120 mines were insufficient to close off all invasion routes but the southern shore was now bottled up. Any landing force would have to bull past both 8 inch gun batteries and the Peacock point 5”/51 battery plus the six anti-boat positions covering the best landing beach on the atoll. Once ashore, the landing force would have to cross a beach liberally sown with landmines that had been slowly accumulated on the island as B-17s dropped off a crate or three each time one landed to refuel on their journey to the Philippines.

Major Devereux thought the next best landing position would be on Peale Island but again, that beach was littered with landmines and dug in machine gun nests.

 

[Killer in]

December 3, 1941 1100 Wake Island


USS Gamble and Tracy were bobbing along off the southwestern shore of Wake Island several hundred yards outside of the reef. The pair of old destroyers were laying several minefields under the watchful eyes of the Marines manning the coast defense batteries.

These mines would not stop a determined invasion. Instead Major Devereux wanted these mines to either delay an assault as minesweepers would need to slowly clear a safe pathway or force an assault into a pair of known and well covered channels. 120 mines were insufficient to close off all invasion routes but the southern shore was now bottled up. Any landing force would have to bull past both 8 inch gun batteries and the Peacock point 5”/51 battery plus the six anti-boat positions covering the best landing beach on the atoll. Once ashore, the landing force would have to cross a beach liberally sown with landmines that had been slowly accumulated on the island as B-17s dropped off a crate or three each time one landed to refuel on their journey to the Philippines.

Major Devereux thought the next best landing position would be on Peale Island but again, that beach was littered with landmines and dug in machine gun nests.

Taking Wake now is going to be a very messy , very bloody business