Could Japan have seized any Russian territory during revolution?

[Panhomo]

What stopped the Japanese from taking, at the very least northern Sakhalin and other islands? Why didn't the Japanese take the opportunity to achieve hegemony in the region by taking Vladivostok?

What sort of armed forces were present that would have opposed the Japanese?

If history had happened as OTL until 1920, except that Japan occupied nearby islands and Russian Manchuria to the Amur, how would the upcoming decades be affected?

 

[EmpressCaitlin]

What stopped the Japanese from taking, at the very least northern Sakhalin and other islands? Why didn't the Japanese take the opportunity to achieve hegemony in the region by taking Vladivostok?

What sort of armed forces were present that would have opposed the Japanese?

If history had happened as OTL until 1920, except that Japan occupied nearby islands and Russian Manchuria to the Amur, how would the upcoming decades be affected?

I think they had already occupied Vladivostok in that period.

 

[Panhomo]

I think they had already occupied Vladivostok in that period.

I knew anti-communist forces landed their at some point, I didn't realize Japan occupied it for any length of time.

Do you know any details? What was the extent the Japanese held, why and when they left, and if they could have stayed?

 

[EmpressCaitlin]

I knew anti-communist forces landed their at some point, I didn't realize Japan occupied it for any length of time.

Do you know any details? What was the extent the Japanese held, why and when they left, and if they could have stayed?

I'm afraid I don't know very much about that.

 

[GlobalHumanism]

Wikipedia is your best friend

Japan did take and hold a large portion of eastern Siberia (including Sakhalin) but were nudged to withdraw under pressure by the US. This occured once the main Russian White General on the Eastern front was captured and executed by the Bolsheviks, ending the US expedition and subsequently Japan's

 

[Panhomo]

Wikipedia is your best friend

Japan did take and hold a large portion of eastern Siberia (including Sakhalin) but we're nudged to withdraw under pressure by the US. This occured once the main Russian White General on the Eastern front was captured and executed by the Bolsheviks, ending the US expedition and subsequently Japan's

Thanks, I read the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Eastern_Front_in_the_Russian_Civil_War which was much less useful.

 

[Shinsu]

The Japanese had around 70,000 troops stationed within the Russian Far East. The Japanese government wasn't able to thoroughly establish a reason as to why they were involved within Russia and the reason that they wanted to stay in Russia. Japan's motives in the Siberian Intervention were complex and poorly articulated. Overtly, Japan was in Siberia to safeguard stockpiled military supplies and to rescue the Czech Legion. However, the Japanese government's hostility towards communism, desire to re-take historic losses, and create a form of buffer state within the region were also underlying factors. However, patronage of various White Movement leaders left Japan in a poor diplomatic position versus the Soviet Union especially after their victory in the Civil War The intervention tore Japan's wartime unity to shreds, leading to the army and government being involved in bitter controversy and renewed faction strife in the army itself. The Japanese did give support to a provisional government based out of Vladivostok for a little over a year, it was meant as a counter to the Far Eastern Republic, but didn't last long after U.S pressure forced Japan to stop supporting them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Priamurye_Government

While it is possible that they could have held some land, if the Soviets wanted to take the land back, they certainty could have. The Soviets would have been a massive threat towards Japanese interests in the area, especially with China on the brink of collapse. It's hard to see outright military conquests in the region after so many years of fighting, but so long as the Russians aren't focused in the east, Japanese interests are safe. They did take the Northern half of Sakhalin Island, sighting the Nikolayevsk incident as reasoning behind this, they gave back the land in 1925 when they established diplomatic relations with the USSR, retaining coal and iron mining rights in the region.

 

[trurle]

Shinshu made a good summary. The lack of political will was behind the Japanese abandoning the intervention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_intervention_in_Siberia

Would the intervention persisted for one reason or another, i can expect a more vicious border war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_border_conflicts
still ending in peace treaty as the situation in Europe will deteriorate after 1935.

More butterflies are expected in Second Sino-Japanese war, but i expect a generally less extensive Japanese occupation for purely economical reasons. Standing army in Siberia will sap any funding for would-be offensive in China. Most likely, no all-out war with China, occupation of only Manchuria to straighten the border line. Would i be sane leader, the definite border would never go beyond Lena River - Bestyah - Skovorodino - OTL Soviet-Chinese border to south-west - Mongolian Border - OTL western Manchukuo border.

Of course, such Greater Japan is doomed to fragment on several independent states. If not in WWII, then about 1970 after decolonization will become the mainstream.

P.S. If Japan limit itself to east of Amur river (which is strategically wise but absolutely unlikely psychologically and tactically) the severe Japanesation of former Russian Far East may happen. The territory is still going to splinter from Japan eventually.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

What stopped the Japanese from taking, at the very least northern Sakhalin and other islands?

Japan already had all the Kuril Islands. Japan did occupy northern Sakhalin with the intent of annexing it. But the US intervened, and put pressure on Japan to withdraw and let the USSR get it "back".

 

[Panhomo]

Thanks for the replies.

Why did the USA pressuring the Japanese to leave Siberia? They were not at all friendly with the USSR?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Primorsk and elsewhere is obvious why Japan might be asked to leave it, but could Japan really have not parted with north Sakhalin under their rule? They already controlled the southern part, could they not have ended up controlling the northern half of the island?

 

[GlobalHumanism]

Thanks for the replies.

Why did the USA pressuring the Japanese to leave Siberia? They were not at all friendly with the USSR?

Again, the whole purpose of the expedition by all the WW1 allies was to support the White Army against the Bolsheviks. Once opportunity that dried up (due to in part to White Army incompetence), there was no reason to stay.

From there it was simple Realpolitik for the US. Japan was a growing power, so letting it keep large extra tracks of territory would upset US Hegemony in the Pacific.

 

[Gasmask134]

Thanks for the replies.

Why did the USA pressuring the Japanese to leave Siberia? They were not at all friendly with the USSR?

Yeah but from what I remember many western powers with interests in the pacific didn't like Japan's expansionism.

There was a book written in the 20s or 30s about a (at the time) hypothetical war between the US and Japan.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Yeah but from what I remember many western powers with interests in the pacific didn't like Japan's expansionism.

There was a book written in the 20s or 30s about a (at the time) hypothetical war between the US and Japan.

There was a brief war scare in 1907. A US Japanese diplomatic tif turned into lurid newspaper headlines. This event caused the USN to take a more critical look at its capability & eventual improvements.

 

[Gasmask134]

There was a brief war scare in 1907. A US Japanese diplomatic tif turned into lurid newspaper headlines. This event caused the USN to take a more critical look at its capability & eventual improvements.

What was the event in question? I know the US was worried about Japan, but I didn't know about a war scare (or I have and I just can't remember it).

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

In 1907, Captain Richard P. Hobson, a Spanish War hero, declared a war scare, saying Japan was about to swamp the United States and to conquer American territory:

“If the war would come tomorrow, Japan could whip us in the Pacific with ease. . . . President Roosevelt is trying to avert the threatened rupture, because he knows we are helpless and that Japan can take the Philippine and Hawaiian Islands tomorrow if she decides to do. Japan now has an army of soldiers in the Hawaiian Islands. They made the invasion quietly as coolies, and now we know that they are soldiers organized into companies, regiments, and brigades.”


This was during the time when anti-Japanese sentiments in California, combined with San Francisco, California Board of Education's regulation to segregate Japanese students, boiled over into quite high feelings.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

What was the event in question? I know the US was worried about Japan, but I didn't know about a war scare (or I have and I just can't remember it).

Can't remember. Last time I saw it referred to was in a paragraph about USN development. Some Japanese were still pissed over what they saw as US duplicity in the 1905 war settlement.

 

[Deadtroopers]

What stopped them? The state hadn't fallen under the control of loonies yet; otherwise this is very similar to the '30s: war in Asia and massive naval spending at one and the same time. If the army hadn't been blowing half the state budget on an unauthorised war would the IJN have signed up for the Washington naval treaty; being as they did so partly because the 8-8 programme had been made unaffordable in consequence?

 

[thezerech]

If the Japanese rather than supporting the Russian white movement decide instead to support "Green Ukrainian Nationalists" they'll have the best parts if the Russian Far East as a loyal puppet state. They'll also have a reason to get Wilson off their backs. Since they'll be fighting both against Bolshevism and for National Self determination. It is somewhat shaky, but if the Japanese want to hold the Far East with a buffer state this is by far there best guarantee.

 

[Little Red Bean]

The occupation of Far-Eastern Russia was an huge economic investment, taking a massive % of Japan's postwar GDP. It simply wasn't economically feasible, for a nation with a lower GDP than Canada, to hold such a territory indefinitely. Also, for those proposing some sort of settler colonialism, keep in mind that Japan had still not even finished settling Hokkaido and Sakhalin at this point. Why would Japanese want to move to even less productive land?