Anglo-American War in 1895

There I no real way, or need, for The Empire to conquer the US. Blockade and bombard the main ports and the US can't do anything about it. If you haven't read my TL (and if not why not!) The Suns Never Set, on the ASB part of the board, you may want to have a look at that (start oh page 16 for the first few years). It starts of in 1886 and, so far is now up to mid 1889. War is raging between Britain, with France, and the US. It's only 6 years before. Plus in 1895 the Endicott reforms have not been put in to motion.

As for it being ASB? The only difference is Britain has flying machines, but not as weapons of war. Apart from that 99% of daily life is the same.
Also I did ask this question, well almost the same, and it turned into a slanging match. Nearly all sayng that the US can't win while a very few others were all USA USA USA types. I'm not sure how to make a link to those threads so check my stats for them, any more questions you have you can PM, I've done a hell of a lot of research for my TL.


The Brits would never bombard US ports, that would mean total war. By 1895 Great Britain can't win a total war with the US. Any thought of a short , victorious war is thrown out the window and you have a long brutal one instead. In that case TF is right because with long all out wars money and population are the big determiners. Add in the fact that the US is 3,000 miles away and it becomes even harder. In such a case the British Empire is going to lose Canada and all of its other Western Hemisphere processions. It might even lose some of its Pacific ones as the US arms native uprisings.

However that wouldn't happen as Westminster knew fully well that the US was outproducing GB. What it would do is fight a naval war around Venezuela which is a war it CAN win. The US wouldn't go into total war mode over Venezuela and so the short, victorious scenario is in play. To win a war over Venezuela it doesn't need to bombard Boston, it just has to prevent US ships from reaching it which it can easily do.
 
add me to the side that says war isn't going to happen.

but if it does, Britain was in the middle of a naval arms race and embraced the concept of having a navy better than the next two navies combined (which, at time of implementation in 1889 was France and Russia). Both sides had virtually no land power whatsoever.

It's going to be a naval war, and the US is badly outclassed. IF the US can hold on long enough to engage their manufacturing base and raise an army, they can probably fight to a draw, ala 1812. At the start of the war, though, there's no doubt who has the most available power.

It's going to affect the Boer Wars. Britain will likely be too war weary to be so aggressive in opposing the Boers.

The US will lose a naval war, particularly early but any land armies GB sends to US shores is turned into hamburger. It can't possibly send and supply am army large enough to compete with what the US can raise.
 
JohnRankins
one of my other posts asks why Britain needs to attack the US on land. The US is trying to impose it's will on Britain/stop it from action in Venezuela. The US has to stop Britain, not the other way around. The US can't do it without total war.

But, while I agree that logistics and landing in the US are a tough row to hoe for Britain, don't confuse 1895 US land forces with what emerged in WW2. Both sides are fairly inadequate on land. The US would have the advantage of being on the defense, and eventually they'll get their military manufacturing and troop training going full bore, but that'll take a few years.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The US will lose a naval war, particularly early but any land armies GB sends to US shores is turned into hamburger. It can't possibly send and supply am army large enough to compete with what the US can raise.
But "Can raise" is the key, isn't it? The US is going to need time to do this - less time than in 1888, say, but more than it took Britain in OTL WW1. (Because the US in 1895 has a standing army plus reserves of ~125,000 and the British in 1914 had a standing army plus reserves of 975,000.)


Basically the US mobilization curve is going to be near-as-makes-no-difference the curve from the Spanish American War, so we have that as a comparison. The bottom line is that by the time the US has a land army able to launch an offensive into Canada, say, the British have been dug in there for weeks or not months.

The British don't have the capability to conquer large swathes of the US, but they should be able to do substantial damage if any landed army is fairly early on.



Since the likely outcome of a war, if there is one, is a phase of warfare which primarily serves to determine who's getting what at the peace table, then the most likely duration of the war is short - and, as such, I doubt the US can raise more than one field army of ~125,000 (National Guard plus regulars) with any depth to it.

That's about as large as the British would likely commit to the fight anyway (though they put much more into the Second Boer War), so it turns out quite even numbers-wise and training/equipment seems likely to decide any land clashes.

Training - the US force has the disadvantage of not being all regulars.

Equipment:

Rifles.
The British have the Lee-Metford and early Lee-Enfield. They're using smokeless powder on the Lee-Enfield, but not on the Lee-Metford.
Either way they have a crazy fast firing magazine rifle.
The US has the Springfield 1892, which is a bolt action rifle with notably slow loading.
This means the British probably have a slight advantage with the Enfield and a disadvantage with the Metford.

Artillery.
The US has at most 56 Hotchkiss guns and may have some Maxim pom-poms. (Can't tell.) Aside from that their artillery may actually be ACW vintage, which is scary... I'd appreciate being corrected. They also have Gatlings, and seem to have Hotchkiss machine guns.
The British have smokeless powder breechloaders (the Ordnance BL 15lber) but no pom-poms. Fortunately for them Maxim has a supply at the factory (OTL some were shipped out in a hurry during the Boer war.) The British also have many, many Maxims (a weapon the US army has not adopted) and some heavier artillery.
Looks like mostly a wash.


Overall conclusion:
The main problem the US has with any war in North America is that almost everyone's going to be inexperienced. Aside from that, they're pretty well off as far as equipment quality goes.

I think the most likely situation for land warfare is the US invading Canada to try and gain leverage, and the British and Canadians defending it. (This is going to be painful for the Americans.) There might also be small attacks where the British try to neutralize forts. (This is going to be painful for the British land troops.)

The naval side of things, OTOH, is basically Britain Rules the Waves. These are the days of the Royal Sovereigns, true battleships wearing steel armour and carrying rifled-breech-loaders firing smokeless explosive rounds.
 
Last edited:
JohnRankins
one of my other posts asks why Britain needs to attack the US on land. The US is trying to impose it's will on Britain/stop it from action in Venezuela. The US has to stop Britain, not the other way around. The US can't do it without total war.

But, while I agree that logistics and landing in the US are a tough row to hoe for Britain, don't confuse 1895 US land forces with what emerged in WW2. Both sides are fairly inadequate on land. The US would have the advantage of being on the defense, and eventually they'll get their military manufacturing and troop training going full bore, but that'll take a few years.

It doesn't need to have its training going full bore to merely defend itself and it has years if it is a total war. It has state militia that can be trained into regulars fairly quickly. GB can't send tens or hundreds of thousands of troops to Canada overnight! If that is your contention that is what the ASB section is for. If GB starts bombarding US cities the gloves come off and it is all out war. The US would NOT surrender just because its cities are being shelled any more than GB or Germany or France would. Getting people to surrender by bombarding cities has a very lousy track record . It angers them more than gets them to give up.

That said that is NOT what GB needs to do or would do. If the war is over Venezuela then all it needs is to prevent the US from reaching there. That turns it into a colonial war which it can easily win. The Brits aren't stupid and would use the strategy that makes sense not just the most blood thirsty ones. Why would GB go into all out total war mode over Venezuela (or the US for that matter)? It isn't worth it, particularly if there is a simpler, quicker, cheaper and more certain way of accomplishing it.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
No one else cares about British Guiana...

The OTL result is that the British agree to let the Americans help them screw Venezuela. Assuming war who else cares?

No one else cares about British Guiana...obviously.;)

However, in a world where European power politics is driven by realpolitik and which predates most of the alliance system that led into WW I, when one great power's historical rival is stupid enough to get involved in a conflict 3,000 miles away from the fulcrum of various imperial ambitions, it's certainly a time to consider whether the enemy of one's enemy is one's friend...

Along those lines, the naval balance is actually worth considering; again, from Bairoch vis Kennedy, warship tonnage was as follows (1890/1900):

UK: 679K/1079K
FR: 319/499
US: 240/333
RU: 180/383
GE: 190/285
IT: 242/245
AH: 66/87
JA: 41/187

The point being, if the French, Italians, Austrians, and Russians wanted to take advantage of Britain's obsession with Guiana to redraw the lines in the Mediterranean littoral, including the Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and/or North Africa, they certainly have an opportunity if (say) 240,000 tons or more of the 679,000 tons of warships under the White Ensign in 1890 are off facing the 240,000 tons of warships under the Stars and Stripes...

Even more of one given the reality that no navy with a substantial edge choses to give a potential enemy a "fair fight."

Best,
 
Last edited:
But "Can raise" is the key, isn't it? The US is going to need time to do this - less time than in 1888, say, but more than it took Britain in OTL WW1. (Because the US in 1895 has a standing army plus reserves of ~125,000 and the British in 1914 had a standing army plus reserves of 975,000.)


Basically the US mobilization curve is going to be near-as-makes-no-difference the curve from the Spanish American War, so we have that as a comparison. The bottom line is that by the time the US has a land army able to launch an offensive into Canada, say, the British have been dug in there for weeks or not months.

The British don't have the capability to conquer large swathes of the US, but they should be able to do substantial damage if any landed army is fairly early on.



Since the likely outcome of a war, if there is one, is a phase of warfare which primarily serves to determine who's getting what at the peace table, then the most likely duration of the war is short - and, as such, I doubt the US can raise more than one field army of ~125,000 (National Guard plus regulars) with any depth to it.

That's about as large as the British would likely commit to the fight anyway (though they put much more into the Second Boer War), so it turns out quite even numbers-wise and training/equipment seems likely to decide any land clashes.

Training - the US force has the disadvantage of not being all regulars.

Equipment:

Rifles.
The British have the Lee-Metford and early Lee-Enfield. They're using smokeless powder on the Lee-Enfield, but not on the Lee-Metford.
Either way they have a crazy fast firing magazine rifle.
The US has the Springfield 1892, which is a bolt action rifle with notably slow loading.
This means the British probably have a slight advantage with the Enfield and a disadvantage with the Metford.

Artillery.
The US has at most 56 Hotchkiss guns and may have some Maxim pom-poms. (Can't tell.) Aside from that their artillery may actually be ACW vintage, which is scary... I'd appreciate being corrected. They also have Gatlings, and seem to have Hotchkiss machine guns.
The British have smokeless powder breechloaders (the Ordnance BL 15lber) but no pom-poms. Fortunately for them Maxim has a supply at the factory (OTL some were shipped out in a hurry during the Boer war.) The British also have many, many Maxims (a weapon the US army has not adopted) and some heavier artillery.
Looks like mostly a wash.


Overall conclusion:
The main problem the US has with any war in North America is that almost everyone's going to be inexperienced. Aside from that, they're pretty well off as far as equipment quality goes.

I think the most likely situation for land warfare is the US invading Canada to try and gain leverage, and the British and Canadians defending it. (This is going to be painful for the Americans.) There might also be small attacks where the British try to neutralize forts. (This is going to be painful for the British land troops.)

The naval side of things, OTOH, is basically Britain Rules the Waves. These are the days of the Royal Sovereigns, true battleships wearing steel armour and carrying rifled-breech-loaders firing smokeless explosive rounds.

In all out war it has time, it has money, it has the population and the infrastructure. There is no way in Hell is GB going to win a land war on US soil in 1895, it just isn't. It does not take forever and a week to train infantry , particularly if you are training up semi-trained militia and you are able to use overwhelming numbers. It would take months for GB to send and supply tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops. More than enough to train up militia and raise more.
 
JohnRankins
we're pretty much in agreement.
Britain won't attack the mainland, because, as you say they don't need to and it's a poor strategy. In this sort of war, Britain is no more likely to invade the mainland than the US is likely to invade Britain. I merely posit that the US isn't some great land force. they have the advantage of defense. that's about it. Just as Canada has the advantage there. IF either side breaks through the defensive shield, the troops are about even.
 
No one else cares about British Guiana...obviously.;)

However, in a world where European power politics is driven by realpolitik and which predates most of the alliance system that led into WW I, when one great power's historical rival is stupid enough to get involved in a conflict 3,000 miles away from the fulcrum of various imperial ambitions, it's certainly a time to consider whether the enemy of one's enemy is one's friend...

Along those lines, the naval balance is actually worth considering; again, from Bairoch vis Kennedy, warship tonnage was as follows (1890/1900):

UK: 679K/1079K
FR: 319/499
US: 240/333
RU: 180/383
GE: 190/285
IT: 242/245
AH: 66/87
JA: 41/187

The point being, if the French, Italians, Austrians, and Russians wanted to take advantage of Britain's obsession with Guiana to redraw the lines in the Mediterranean littoral, including the Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa, they certainly have an opportunity if (say) 240,000 tons or more of the 679,000 tons of warships under the White Ensign in 1890 are off facing the 240,000 tons of warships under the Stars and Stripes...

Even more of one given the reality that no navy with a substantial edge choses to give a potential enemy a "fair fight."

Best,

The realpolitik is no one is going to gamble on behalf of America and everyone has potential enemies closer to home who are much more more important.
 
it took a year for the US to raise an army in WW1, and that was just basically a lot of canon fodder to jump out of a ditch and get shot. they used sticks as rifles in training.
 
In all out war it has time, it has money, it has the population and the infrastructure. There is no way in Hell is GB going to win a land war on US soil in 1895, it just isn't. It does not take forever and a week to train infantry , particularly if you are training up semi-trained militia and you are able to use overwhelming numbers. It would take months for GB to send and supply tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops. More than enough to train up militia and raise more.

Britain will not be fighting a total war on US soil. It has no need to. It can achieve its war aims without landing a single Tommy Atkins on US soil. It just needs to bosh Venezuela, reinforce Canada and wait.

The idea that America has enough invested in the fight to justify total war is close to obscene. The American system can easily survive the humiliation of a single President from time to time.

The point that would be raised if you wanted to be smart about this was that Cleveland recognised that. The British would know they could win a fight if pushed so he did not push, he offered to give the British what they wanted so long as they gave him a cheap diplomatic victory. As the numbers show the USA was not the kind of nation the Empire could ROFLstomp with two cruisers and company of Royal Marines so it made sense for the British to avoid the expense of war when they were not going to lose out.

Even so Cleveland's Democratic party lost the Presidency to Mckinley the Republican.
 
I think this would be one of those wars that rapidly deviates from its stated purpose in an entirely different direction.

The American people in the 1890s hardly cared about Venezuela. It would serve mainly as a pretext for a conflict over something they would care about - Canada. Once war is declared, the U.S. will probably forget about Venezuela pretty quickly and amass troops on its northern border.

This hypothetical war would probably end up looking like a War of 1812 rematch. This time, the U.S. probably can successfully overrun most of Canada, at least initially. Even if Canada's defenses are reasonably stout, sheer numbers work against them. I'm not certain how the British would counter - raids on the East Coast cities? Counter-invasion of Canada themselves? Would there be a Canadian resistance?
 
Last edited:

Saphroneth

Banned
This hypothetical war would probably end up looking like a War of 1812 rematch. This time, the U.S. probably can successfully overrun most of Canada, at least initially. Even if Canada's defenses are reasonably stout, sheer numbers work against them. I'm not certain how the British would counter - raids on the East Coast cities? Counter-invasion of Canada themselves? Would there be a Canadian resistance?

Sorry, but this section of your post assumes large numbers of American soldiers at the start of the conflict - this is not even remotely the case.

The entire US army - infantry, cavalry, artillery, coastal garrisons, the lot - is 25,000 men by Congressional order at this time. Even counting all the enrolled National Guard (which would of course mean the British and Canada had time to prepare) the US only has 125,000 men to play with. And that includes garrisons for coastal forts, so a generous estimate is an invading army of 20,000 Regulars and 80,000 Regularized national guard.
Anything further has to be recruited from scratch.

Compare that to the British standing army (I don't have the numbers offhand, but in 1880 it was roughly 250,000) and the response curve during the Boer War a few years hence, and you can see the US policy of "build the army during the war" is going to have important side effects on any plan to stomp Canada flat before the British can send reinforcements.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yes, which is why the prime enemy of the RN in wartime was

The realpolitik is no one is going to gamble on behalf of America and everyone has potential enemies closer to home who are much more more important.

Yes, which is why the prime enemy of the RN in wartime in the 1890s was always perceived to be the French, followed by the Russians...

Why were the British building all those pre-dreadnoughts, again?;)

As far as the British Army being deployed to Canada goes, one may want to check when President Cleveland went to Congress (December, 1895) and when the last British regulars were withdrawn (1871) and when both a) navigation on the St. Lawrence opened and closed, and b) when the Intercolonial Railway was opened, and why they had to use snow sheds through the Matapedia River valley; then compare with the railway network from the US into the Canadian provinces of (for example) of Ontario and Quebec...

Best,
 
Last edited:
IOTL there was a dispute between the United Kingdom and Venezuela wherein President Grover Cleveland made some threats to the British but later came to an understanding and helped them negotiate a deal between the two countries.

What if it had come to war? Instead of fighting Spain in 1898 the United States would pit itself directly against the United Kingdom over Venezuela in what would be the third such conflict between the two since the United States founding. The United Kingdom is much bigger in terms of military strength than the United States - who would be victorious? Would anyone else get involved?

Additionally, how would this effect Anglo-American relations as a World War looms over Europe less than a generation later?

Methinks the US would not be willing to risk British relations in a war over Venezuela.
 
Yes, which is why the prime enemy of the RN in wartime in the 1890s was always perceived to be the French, followed by the Russians...

Why were the British building all those pre-dreadnoughts, again?;)

As far as the British Army being deployed to Canada goes, one may want to check when President Cleveland went to Congress (Decemeber, 1895) and when the last British regulars were withdrawn (1871) and when both a) navigation on the St. Lawrence opened and closed, and b) when the Intercolonial Railway was opened, and why they had to use snow sheds through the Matapedia River valley; then compare with the railway network from the US into the Canadian provinces of (for example) of Ontario and Quebec...

Best,

I know you are hoping it will escape people's notice but Halifax Nova Scotia is actually counted as being part of Canada now but was not then so I take it you know there are British regulars at Halifax in the period in question?

The fact remains as has been pointed out the US Army mustered some twenty five thousand troops total. Trying to overrun a British Imperial possession with some thirty thousand men was to be tried within a few years. It failed then. In additions but the passage time of the British Expeditionary Corps that would be sent to Canada would be shorter than it was for South Africa.

However as you say President Cleveland must persuade Congress to vote for a war of aggression. A hard sell. Likely to tip off British? Yes. Less risky for Cleveland personally than launching his army off ill prepared and lacking in supplies into Canada on Presidential authority alone though, especially when the bad news starts trickling back home.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yes, because the RGA coast artillery batteries of Halifax

I know you are hoping it will escape people's notice but Halifax Nova Scotia is actually counted as being part of Canada now but was not then so I take it you know there are British regulars at Halifax in the period in question? The fact remains as has been pointed out the US Army mustered some twenty five thousand troops total. Trying to overrun a British Imperial possession with some thirty thousand men was to be tried within a few years. It failed then. In additions but the passage time of the British Expeditionary Corps that would be sent to Canada would be shorter than it was for South Africa.
However as you say President Cleveland must persuade Congress to vote for a war of aggression. A hard sell. Likely to tip off British? Yes. Less risky for Cleveland personally than launching his army off ill prepared and lacking in supplies into Canada on Presidential authority alone though, especially when the bad news starts trickling back home.

Yes, because the RGA coast artillery batteries (all 2 of them, IIRC) of Halifax are going to make a tremendous difference in the defense of New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, and points west...

From where, of course, the British left in 1871.

http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/page-507-eng.asp

Again, this supposed conflict is about as likely as the Axis entering Cairo in 1942, but nonetheless: it is not because of the British Army presence in North America. The US had no interest in a war with Britain; Britain had no interest in a war with the United States. This cartoon from the day sort of sums up what was going on:

US_and_UK_following_Britain%27s_agreement_to_go_to_arbitration_in_1896.jpg


Who's missing in the picture?

Best,
 
Britain will not be fighting a total war on US soil. It has no need to. It can achieve its war aims without landing a single Tommy Atkins on US soil. It just needs to bosh Venezuela, reinforce Canada and wait.

The idea that America has enough invested in the fight to justify total war is close to obscene. The American system can easily survive the humiliation of a single President from time to time.

The point that would be raised if you wanted to be smart about this was that Cleveland recognised that. The British would know they could win a fight if pushed so he did not push, he offered to give the British what they wanted so long as they gave him a cheap diplomatic victory. As the numbers show the USA was not the kind of nation the Empire could ROFLstomp with two cruisers and company of Royal Marines so it made sense for the British to avoid the expense of war when they were not going to lose out.

Even so Cleveland's Democratic party lost the Presidency to Mckinley the Republican.

Agreed, it would simply cut off Venezuela. However he is arguing that GB would SHELL BOSTON OR NEW YORK! Now that would result in total war!
 
I think this would be one of those wars that rapidly deviates from its stated purpose in an entirely different direction.

The American people in the 1890s hardly cared about Venezuela. It would serve mainly as a pretext for a conflict over something they would care about - Canada. Once war is declared, the U.S. will probably forget about Venezuela pretty quickly and amass troops on its northern border.

This hypothetical war would probably end up looking like a War of 1812 rematch. This time, the U.S. probably can successfully overrun most of Canada, at least initially. Even if Canada's defenses are reasonably stout, sheer numbers work against them. I'm not certain how the British would counter - raids on the East Coast cities? Counter-invasion of Canada themselves? Would there be a Canadian resistance?


The US was not interested in invading Canada at this time. It would only do so in an all out war with GB. If sanity would prevail in London (Which I am sure it would) a fleet is sent out to SA and that would be the end of it. He is arguing that GB would shell Boston. Now THAT would end in all out war.
 
Top