WI: Paris was destroyed by the German forces during retreat?

[Gan]

What if Hitler's orders to destroy Paris were carried out? How would this have affected the post-war Europe, especially relations between France and Germany?

How long would Paris take to rebuild, and would it be the capital at this point? What affect would this have on France's recovery, both short-term and long-term?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

There's a depiction of this in CalBear's Anglo-American/Nazi War, I think much of the city is rebuilt but it takes years. I'd imagine that the French will want every German soldier involved, from Field Marshal down to Private treated like a war criminal, so probably hundreds of additional hangings. The French may probably push for a much more severe peace, probably annexing the Saarland and wanting Germany permanently partitioned. It would certainly delay the beginings of the EU by at least 10-15 years.

 

[Matteo]

I don't think Saarland would compensate. Destroying Paris would be the same as destroying Rome.

It is highly probable that there would never be a french-german reconciliation.

 

[Resurgam]

As hinted in previous posts, the destruction of the cultural and political heart of France would be unforgivable. Not only would the French occupation regime be even harsher, but you likely butterfly any French/German reconciliation, and with it, the EEC, and with that, the EU.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

What if they only destroy the Eiffel Tower

 

[Resurgam]

What if they only destroy the Eiffel Tower

It just wouldn't stop there. The hit list included every landmark of note and every bridge crossing the Seine. The French will not overlook such vandalism.

 

[fishingfred]

Well I wouldn't call it unforgivable, especially when looking at modern day German-Polish relations.
But as has been pointed out above Franco-German reconciliation would probably be much harder. Which makes the whole European project much more unlikely or at least less likely on a Franco-German axis.

 

[New Yorker]

Thank you Gen. Dietrich von Choltitz!

 

[redlightning]

The Allies would probably retaliate from the air with many more firebombings like Dresden to end the war faster. Perhaps they would even use anthrax in certain cases. More German cities for sure would be left in ruins by bombers than OTL.

 

[fscott]

There's a depiction of this in CalBear's Anglo-American/Nazi War, I think much of the city is rebuilt but it takes years. I'd imagine that the French will want every German soldier involved, from Field Marshal down to Private treated like a war criminal, so probably hundreds of additional hangings. The French may probably push for a much more severe peace, probably annexing the Saarland and wanting Germany permanently partitioned. It would certainly delay the beginings of the EU by at least 10-15 years.

I seriously doubt that France would have the clout "I'd imagine that the French will want every German soldier involved, from Field Marshal down to Private treated like a war criminal, so probably hundreds of additional hangings. The French may probably push for a much more severe peace, probably annexing the Saarland and wanting Germany permanently partitioned." After the way the way the US was treated At Versailles, which led to WW2, they were not going to let France cause a repeat. Germany destroys Paris and mass executiond the US destroys Japan and we are heroes? It would look back as a war crime on Germany and France.

 

[Napoléon Caesar Augustus]

I seriously doubt that France would have the clout "I'd imagine that the French will want every German soldier involved, from Field Marshal down to Private treated like a war criminal, so probably hundreds of additional hangings. The French may probably push for a much more severe peace, probably annexing the Saarland and wanting Germany permanently partitioned." After the way the way the US was treated At Versailles, which led to WW2, they were not going to let France cause a repeat. Germany destroys Paris and mass executiond the US destroys Japan and we are heroes? It would look back as a war crime on Germany and France.

So the Germans destroy the ancient capital of France, destroying priceless historical artifacts, killing tons of people, and permanently damaging the culture and face of France for no other reason than petty evil spite even though the war is already lost. They do this during a war they caused themselves even after they were peacefully given pretty much everything they wanted, and during which they pretty much committed the worst crimes against humanity in history. And you think this barbaric act by one of the most evil countries ever exist is comparable to the USA destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Which they did to force a surrender of the Empire Japan, which was another one of the most evil states to ever exist and which attacked the USA out of sheer imperialism? I strongly question your morality and common sense.

 

[MrHaakwood]

So the Germans destroy the ancient capital of France, destroying priceless historical artifacts, killing tons of people, and permanently damaging the culture and face of France for no other reason than petty evil spite even though the war is already lost. They do this during a war they caused themselves even after they were peacefully given pretty much everything they wanted, and during which they pretty much committed the worst crimes against humanity in history. And you think this barbaric act by one of the most evil countries ever exist is comparable to the USA destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Which they did to force a surrender of the Empire Japan, which was another one of the most evil states to ever exist and which attacked the USA out of sheer imperialism? I strongly question your morality and common sense.

fishingfred has a point. Okay Warsaw never had the same meaning as Paris, but still.

 

[Nocrazy]

For the record, Paris is literally sitting on what can a bunch of abandoned, and unstable, mineshafts. So actually rebuilding Paris will be next to impossible. We are talking millions of dead people to aid to Hitler's list of dead, as well the destruction of a center of culture. I mean, it's the City of Light! The City of Love! Kings have been crowned and killed in Paris. The Fremch won't forgive, and won't forget for well over a century. I mean, the Danes and Norwegians haven't really forgiven Sweden much for winning the last war between them. Think what this will be like.

 

[fscott]

So the Germans destroy the ancient capital of France, destroying priceless historical artifacts, killing tons of people, and permanently damaging the culture and face of France for no other reason than petty evil spite even though the war is already lost. They do this during a war they caused themselves even after they were peacefully given pretty much everything they wanted, and during which they pretty much committed the worst crimes against humanity in history. And you think this barbaric act by one of the most evil countries ever exist is comparable to the USA destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Which they did to force a surrender of the Empire Japan, which was another one of the most evil states to ever exist and which attacked the USA out of sheer imperialism? I strongly question yourmorality and common sense.

How many AXIS cities describe what the Germans did to Paris? I do not support what German did but the ALLIES did not have clean hands. The war was over in 1942-43 actually , you mentioned the war was lost but I guess Germany and Japan didn't get the memo since they kept fighting. As for spite the treaty of Versailles with it's harsh petty terms caused WW2. I used the atomic bombs because I was to lazy to list Dresden Tokyo Warsaw Coventry and the list goes on. Both sides committed horrible breach of law and were guilty of War Crimes. We won so the other side is worse, in this case true, and how much of the priceless historical artifacts were taken from the Jews? Paris and surrounding areas cooperated with the Germans in deporting Homosexuals, Gypsies, Political Prisoners, Jews to be sent to concentration camps where the US just put Japaneses citizens in concentration camps to get to their money, we were racist and we did not kill them. You are looking at everything in black and white when it really was shades of gray. With the exception of dropping the 2 bombs each side did 95%+- of the same thing it is only how far they went. When you get to the point that you can only call some one that you question the morality and common sense you have lost the argument. Lastly we are in a what if discussion not planning a war.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Let me think.
Paris crushed -> France infuriated -> very harsh peace -> new Franco-German war long-term inevitable ->Berlin nuked to ashes.
On the long term.

 

[fishingfred]

So the Germans destroy the ancient capital of France, destroying priceless historical artifacts, killing tons of people, and permanently damaging the culture and face of France for no other reason than petty evil spite even though the war is already lost. They do this during a war they caused themselves even after they were peacefully given pretty much everything they wanted, and during which they pretty much committed the worst crimes against humanity in history. And you think this barbaric act by one of the most evil countries ever exist is comparable to the USA destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Which they did to force a surrender of the Empire Japan, which was another one of the most evil states to ever exist and which attacked the USA out of sheer imperialism? I strongly question your morality and common sense.

I would think that people are more important than buildings and of those the nazis already have killed more than anyone can comprehend. I wouldn’t equate it to Nagasaki and Dresden (Acts of War vs. an completely senseless act of defiance/vengefulness). But, still I think in the end most of it will be blamed on the “Nazis” and not on the “Germans”, as so many things, especially with a looming cold war.

For the record, Paris is literally sitting on what can a bunch of abandoned, and unstable, mineshafts. So actually rebuilding Paris will be next to impossible. We are talking millions of dead people to aid to Hitler's list of dead, as well the destruction of a center of culture. I mean, it's the City of Light! The City of Love! Kings have been crowned and killed in Paris. The French won't forgive, and won't forget for well over a century. I mean, the Danes and Norwegians haven't really forgiven Sweden much for winning the last war between them. Think what this will be like.

I really think you overestimate the nazis ability to destroy Paris in such a short time. Yes, probably all important cultural buildings and monuments would have been destroyed, but nothing on the scale you seem to imagine. I would guess the death toll will at most be in the thousands (still terrible but compared to the rest of WW2

).
And I think the level of animosity between the scandinavian countries is almost non-existent since after WW2.

 

[oreocruncher]

How many AXIS cities describe what the Germans did to Paris? I do not support what German did but the ALLIES did not have clean hands. The war was over in 1942-43 actually , you mentioned the war was lost but I guess Germany and Japan didn't get the memo since they kept fighting. As for spite the treaty of Versailles with it's harsh petty terms caused WW2. I used the atomic bombs because I was to lazy to list Dresden Tokyo Warsaw Coventry and the list goes on. Both sides committed horrible breach of law and were guilty of War Crimes. We won so the other side is worse, in this case true, and how much of the priceless historical artifacts were taken from the Jews? Paris and surrounding areas cooperated with the Germans in deporting Homosexuals, Gypsies, Political Prisoners, Jews to be sent to concentration camps where the US just put Japaneses citizens in concentration camps to get to their money, we were racist and we did not kill them. You are looking at everything in black and white when it really was shades of gray. With the exception of dropping the 2 bombs each side did 95%+- of the same thing it is only how far they went. When you get to the point that you can only call some one that you question the morality and common sense you have lost the argument. Lastly we are in a what if discussion not planning a war.

Well, in the perspective of some Chinese and Koreans, the atomic bombings were too lenient...

 

[mlp]

Well, in the perspective of some Chinese and Koreans, the atomic bombings were too lenient...

(I don't think this is very relevant to the topic)

To answer fscott's post:

I agree with you wholeheartedly, although I would emphasise the fact that the Axis were more eager in such heavy casualties in both manpower and culture.

 

[Hecatee]

Depending on the level of destruction many possible alternatives but we can be sure a capital would be rebuilt in Paris, if only for honor's sake, especially as De Gaulle would never let such a symbol of France in rubbles.

But what would be rebuilt ? Notre-Dame probably, as well as the Eiffel Tower. The Invalid ? Maybe, due to Napoleon's tomb. Same for the Pantheon and the Arc de Triomphe, due to the symbolic. The Louvre ? Maybe not all of it, a modern construction might come in its place to symbolize the rebirth of the Nation. The Elysée Palace ? It would be replaced by a modern building or would be relocated into a surviving hotel particulier (rich private house). Another choice could be to go the Russian way, total rebuilding of every building of cultural worth as it was before the war (see the imperial palaces near St Petersbourg/Leningrad, or even the german imperial palaces in Potsdam to see what I mean).

Depending on the level of destruction on the housing market, we could see parts of Paris built with modern buildings not keeping on with the traditionnal Hausmanian style, certainly outside of the Grands Boulevards. More areas might be built using Le Corbusier's ideas for mass lodging (thus more catastrophic living conditions and future social catastrophes such as the current banlieues).

Overall the architecture in modern Paris would be more diverse and american-style towers may be built earlier and in greater numbers than what was done in the Défense area, but would still be out of the historical center due to concerns with the caves underneath and/or massive floodings.

 

[thekingsguard]

It would likely break the back of modern France - Paris would be rebuilt (just look at how the Poles rebuilt Warsaw), but we would likely see a France throwing its weight around, likely a much bigger player in NATO/the West. None of this "third way" crap when the Marshall Plan rebuilds Paris.

Where would the French capital be until Paris is rebuilt?