Valdemar II
Banned
What if the Magyars invasion of Hungary failed or they stayed out on the steppes? How would this lack of a the Magyars means for Europe and Hungary (beside not ending up as Hungary)?
The lack of Magyars.
- Thread starter Valdemar II
- Start date
Well, Hungary would probably be a Slavic state.
The first major consequence I can think of is the likely butterflying away of the Mongols. The Magyars moved into Hungary in 896, and the Mongols were in the 1200s--at the other end of the steppe, but that's a great place for communication in that time period. The rest of Europe would be butterflied, but I'm not sure how or how much.
The first major consequence I can think of is the likely butterflying away of the Mongols. The Magyars moved into Hungary in 896, and the Mongols were in the 1200s--at the other end of the steppe, but that's a great place for communication in that time period. The rest of Europe would be butterflied, but I'm not sure how or how much.
In some way the Magyaes did for the HRE what the Vikings did for Anglo-Saxon England. Taking an extreme case, their absence could strangle the Ottonian state in its cradle. So, assuming maximum plausible effect:
- Henry the Fowler and Otto I are elected kings and crowned emperors, but without their victories and castellation programmes, they remain bretwalda-style dukes among dukes with a fancy hat from Rome. Following the death of Otto I with the kingdom in disarray, the family can not retain its leading position. The German dukes select Eberhard of Franconia as their next king while Italy falls to Berengar II's son Adalbert. The imperial title goes to Eberhard, but after his death is granted to Hugh Capet (tapped as a military counterbalance to the threatening Adalbert of Italy) and from then on will traditionally remain with the French kings. Germany and Italy remain national kingdoms, with the Welf dynasty succeeding in turning an elective monarchy into a hereditary one, but having to accept a large degree of independence for the dukes of Saxony (House of Billung) and Bavaria (House of Luitpold).
- The 'imperial Church' does not emerge and while the bishops and abbots of Germany continue to hold significant lands and offices, they never attain the standing as independent rulers and electors. The Investiture contest takes on a different shape, with the pope's favour shining on the Norman and Plantagenet opponents to the Capetians whenever the issue of the imperial title comes to the fore. Eventually, the investiture question is settled throughout Europe. Nobody goes to either Canossa or Anagni.
- Hungary becomes Slavic and quite likely Orthodox.
- the Polish border will run farther west because of a later organisation of the Billunger March slightly delaying the Saxon conquests.
I can't speak to Byzantium or the Rus, but the knock-on effects alone should get interesting.
- Henry the Fowler and Otto I are elected kings and crowned emperors, but without their victories and castellation programmes, they remain bretwalda-style dukes among dukes with a fancy hat from Rome. Following the death of Otto I with the kingdom in disarray, the family can not retain its leading position. The German dukes select Eberhard of Franconia as their next king while Italy falls to Berengar II's son Adalbert. The imperial title goes to Eberhard, but after his death is granted to Hugh Capet (tapped as a military counterbalance to the threatening Adalbert of Italy) and from then on will traditionally remain with the French kings. Germany and Italy remain national kingdoms, with the Welf dynasty succeeding in turning an elective monarchy into a hereditary one, but having to accept a large degree of independence for the dukes of Saxony (House of Billung) and Bavaria (House of Luitpold).
- The 'imperial Church' does not emerge and while the bishops and abbots of Germany continue to hold significant lands and offices, they never attain the standing as independent rulers and electors. The Investiture contest takes on a different shape, with the pope's favour shining on the Norman and Plantagenet opponents to the Capetians whenever the issue of the imperial title comes to the fore. Eventually, the investiture question is settled throughout Europe. Nobody goes to either Canossa or Anagni.
- Hungary becomes Slavic and quite likely Orthodox.
- the Polish border will run farther west because of a later organisation of the Billunger March slightly delaying the Saxon conquests.
I can't speak to Byzantium or the Rus, but the knock-on effects alone should get interesting.
It seems everybody here forgot about Great Moravia, Slavic and Christian state (pretty much today's Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, southern Poland, south-east Germany) destroyed by Magyars. Without their invasion Moravia might have overcome internal problems and survive. WI Moravians expand into today's Poland (after all they had Lesser Poland) and unite Western-Slavic tribes under their rule? How would that influence European history? Strong, Slavic state in the centre of the continent, blocking the expansion of HRE to east... I can see some serious possibilities here.
IIRC the Moravia rulers were overlords of the Avar territory the Carolingians lost. But I would say it's too early for German settlement. The population surplus that drove it in the 11th and 12th century just isn't there in the 9th and early 10th.
I would say mostly Slavic, for example a local ruler who had a German name, slavified it. And Hungarians recieved a lot of loanwords from Slavs.
Hungary does not become Slavic as there is no Hungary
. In the west is Germany, in north Moravia and to southeast are Bulgars.Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Great Moravia might eventually accept German suzerainty like Bohemia (and even Hungary at one point) did in OTL. Expect a great Bulgarian-Moravian rivalry in Pannonia and Croatia.
That is, of course, if anything like OTL's Germany comes into being. The Magyar threat was instrumental to the emergence of imperial power in the 900s.
Just for shits and giggles, a powerful, loosely federated Great Kingdom of Moravia (or Poland, or Bohemia) could end up dominating the weak and disunited German dukedoms.
Valdemar II
Banned
I doubt it the Austian/Bavarian was colonising them at the time, we could easy end up with a Östmark to Budapest
Great Moravia was never the most stable country, so I don't think they would be up to dominating thousands of hostile Germanic peoples. and East Francia was already there before the Magyars, so the Germans did have a framework for a state already set up. although the Magyars did do a lot to help build Germany, without them it probably still would have formed. (eventually).
Lot of states were not stable during the period. Plus a fair amount of instability came in a form of German interference (as did a fair amount of stability, medieval politics...). Though yes, long-term survival of Moravia is dependent on getting the inheritence issues sorted out better.
I'm not exactly envisioning the Germans as hostile. Admittedly it's not a likely outcome given the way demographics and technology favour the West, but a powerful Western Slavic state could establish feudal overlordship over German dukes and invite German settlewrs to meliorate his lands. Poland and Bohemia both did this with great success, and Bohemia was pretty close to becoming the power centre of the empire at one point. Nationalist sentiment didn't become a decisive issue until the later middle ages, so there is no shame for a German lord in swearing fealty to a Slavic prince or vice versa.
one thing I can see would be different, is that the Rus' Khaganate would not decline as quickly, if at all. (this would only work of the Magyars stay in Etelkuzu thought), because the Rus' Khaganate depended on the Volga trade route for their wealth. with the Magyars staying in Etelkuzu, that would mean the Dnieper region would remain relatively backwards and the Volga trade route would not decline. so this might lead to a survivial of the Rus' Khaganate or a Varangian successor state at least.