Avro Arrow TL (NOT CANADA-WANK)

Hey all, the thread about "My country's dream airplane" got me thinking about the Canadian Wonderplane: The Avro Arrow. Having looked into the subject I'm pretty confident that Diefenbaker's decision to cancel the Avro Arrow was actually one of his better ones. However, the Avro Arrow did come perilously close to being produced and ordered for the RCAF. Without Diefenbaker, it is reasonably possible that the Avro Arrow program would be brought to fruition.

To what effect? Well...


POD Canadian Federal Election: During a rally for the Liberal Party in Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto, a young protester attempts to storm onstage during a speech by the incumbent PM, Louis St. Laurent. In OTL he managed to do so and proceeded to tear a poster on stage before security guards proceeded to move in and escort him off the stage. Before they could do that, however, he tripped and fell down a flight of stairs and struck his head on the cement floor giving himself a concussion. In OTL the incident severely damaged the Liberal reputation, enhancing their reputation as an arrogant party. However in TTL one of the Maple Leaf Gardens’ security guards is paying more attention and intercepts the boy before he can run on stage. Laurent continues his speech without incident.

The election of 1957
Come election day, the Liberals are doing marginally better than they were in OTL. Despite the best efforts of Diefenbaker and the Progressive Conservatives, the Liberals find their mandate renewed. However, everything is not just peachy for the Liberals, the election saw their strong 169 seat majority government of 1953 reduced to a paltry 112 seats. Only after negotiating with the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (a social democratic party) and securing the support of its 25 members of parliament did the Liberal Party have enough seats to form a government, controlling 51 percent of the House of Commons.

The 23rd Canadian Parliament

Makeup:
*Liberals: 112 seats
Progressive Conservative Party: 109 seats
*Co-operative Commonwealth Federation: 25 seats
Social Credit Party: 19 seats
Needed for a majority: 133
Liberal/CCF government: 112+25=137
Total Seats: 265

The 23rd Parliament of TTL is not substantially different than OTL, the Liberals gain a mere 8 seats at the expense of mainly independent candidates and the Progressive Conservatives. The Liberals are forced to cooperate with the CCF to form a government making this the first Minority government since the 16th Canadian Parliament that governed during the late 1920’s.

Now, Minority governments in Canada do not tend to last very long, they tend to average around 2 years. Louis St. Laurent is getting pretty old by 1957 so let’s say that by 1959, Louis decides to call it quits and retires. Recognizing that the Liberal Party desperately needs new blood, Laurent like his predecessor Mackenzie King, persuades the Liberal Party to nominate none other than Lester B. Pearson as the next leader of the Liberal Party and by extension, the next Prime Minister of Canada.

After Pearson takes power, the coalition between the Liberals and the CCF begins to fall apart. Pressure mounts for Pearson to call an election, and he does in 1969 officially bringing about an end to the 23rd Canadian parliament. All told, this parliament does very little other than maintain the programs of the previous Liberal government. The influence of the CCF does however, result in Laurent’s social programs receiving better funding. What it does do, and key to the TL is that it DOES NOT cancel the Avro Arrow program because this Liberal Party feels no need to cut back on its own rampant spending. It does however agree to sign the NORAD treaty but decides to keep the Arrow instead of getting Bomarc missiles.

The Election of 1959
The election of 1959 sees the Liberal party in much better shape than it’s OTL analogue (the election of 1958), and under the new leadership of Nobel Peace Prize winner Lester B. Pearson. The Conservatives are hoping to usurp the Liberals after 24 years of successive governments and maintain John Diefenbaker as their leader. The CCF (read: Social Democrats) are also doing much better under Major James Coldwell.

Now economically, Canada’s not doing so hot, without the Conservative government of John Diefenbaker many of the economic problems that sparked the election of 1958 are not only still present, but are probably beginning to manifest themselves. Diefenbaker’s going to be all over the Liberals on this to the point of making it sound like a broken record. Everything taken into account, the PC’s seem to be set to win this election. HOWEVER, for the sake of this scenario we’ll throw another factor into play. Diefenbaker, a fairly anti-catholic individual, and a little sore over his loss in 1957, makes an anti-catholic statement something along the lines of “Maybe we’ll pick up a few seats in Quebec now that the papists don’t have Papa Louis to vote for.” This statement makes him incredibly un-popular with the Catholic population of Canada and gives Pearson something to campaign about.

The results of the 1959 election are strikingly similar to the last election. The Liberals sweep Quebec and manage to limit their losses in Ontario and the rest of the country. The Progressive Conservative party manages to maintain 107 seats despite Diefenbaker’s anti-catholic remarks. Thus the Liberal/CCF coalition remains in power with the CCF holding the balance of power once again.

The 24th Canadian Parliament

Makeup:
*Liberal Party: 109 seats
Progressive Conservatives: 107 seats
*CCF: 28 seats
Social Credit: 21
Seats needed for a majority: 113
Liberal/CCF government: 109+28=137
Total Seats: 265

Anyhow the 24th Canadian parliament is pretty much just a repeat of its predecessor. The CCF is a good deal more moderate than OTL’s NDP (non Canadians read: moderate social democrats) so don’t expect anything too crazy. Hospital insurance (the precursor to the Canada Health Care act) will probably be expanded to appease the CCF along with pensions, welfare, and other social programs. The deficit will continue to rise as spending for these programs augments spending for other ongoing programs such as the Avro Arrow. Now, for the sake of the scenario, let’s assume that this 24th Canadian parliament manages to successfully govern Canada for about 3 years (the tenure of OTL Pearson’s first minority government) lasting until 1962.

Now this is important because by lasting to 1962, this ensures the existence of the Avro Arrow...

The Avro Arrow
Now contrary to popular belief, the Avro Arrow is NOT going to be the best thing that ever happened to Canada. In fact a fair amount of evidence suggests that it would be a massive white elephant for the Canadian military. HOWEVER this is not to suggest that it wouldn’t be built, only that it wouldn’t prove to be very useful in the long run. The Arrow’s really too expensive to be marketed successfully as an export fighter and will only equip the RCAF in TTL. The only thing that will prove to be an export success will be the Arrow’s powerplant the Orenda PS 13 Iroquois engine which will be purchased by France.

The total number of Arrows produced in TTL will be somewhere around the 150 mark with the RCAF downsizing to accommodate the massive costs of the Arrow units. Attempts to market the Avro Arrow to foreign markets prove to be failures as the few countries that could afford such a craft would much rather buy cheaper American planes or produce their own.

Upon entering service, the Avro Arrow is one of the most advanced aircraft in the world. It’s capable of just over Mach 2.5, uses and advanced fly-by-wire system, as well as housing it’s armament of 8 Falcon missiles in an internal bay. It is considered by many to have no equal amongst the Warsaw pact’s arsenal of fighters. Due to this, work on what would become the MiG 25 is sped up resulting in it entering service slightly earlier than OTL.

Unfortunately, for many Canadians the Avro Arrow is seen to be a massive waste of money. Soon after units begin to re-equip the RCAF reports begin to surface over massive cost overruns as well as corruption within the system. This coupled with the Arrow’s failure to attract lucrative export contracts prove to be key factors in the defeat of Pearson’s Liberal government in the upcoming election.

As a side note, the Sparrow II program intended for the Arrow, is cancelled slightly later than OTL. This is due to the fact that the concept of a true fire and forget missile is somewhat beyond early 1960’s technology.

The Election of 1962:
1962 will prove to be the magic number for the Progressive Conservative Party. The looming white elephant of the Avro Arrow, coupled with a severe economic downturn, corruption within the government, and the downsizing of the Canadian air-force due to the Avro Arrow, gives the Conservatives a winning combination in 1962. Yet another factor would be the replacement of John Diefenbaker with the equally fiery but less controversial British Columbian Edmund Davie Fulton.

Fulton’s aggressive campaign is matched by a Liberal campaign that is lack-lustre at best. Pearson’s platform mainly consists of lauding his government’s ability to co-operate, put through social programs, and maintain a strong defence industry. However Fulton is quick to point out that Canada’s “Defence Industry” is nothing more than a paper tiger and a white elephant. His statement that “The military’s primary goal is to protect our nation not make us feel better about ourselves” coupled with his fiscally conservative platform wins him widespread support.

This is also coupled with the Liberal stronghold of Quebec being split with the resurgent Quebec wing of the Social Credit party. Despite the party’s split, and prompt decline in Western Canada, the Social Credit party in Quebec quickly proves itself to be alive and kicking. Meanwhile the CCF suffers a decisive defeat and ends up losing over half of its seats.

In the end the Liberal/CCF parties are decisively defeated. The Progressive Conservative Party, under E. Davie Fulton have won their first majority government since 1935 ending 27 years of successive Liberal governments.
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So yeah, that's draft 1

It's pretty late at night over here so I'd wager that draft 2 will be forthcoming shortly.

Anyone care to comment? Speculate?

Why not include the Avro Jetliner also - tho that would be an earlier POD. However, I have doubts about your opinion of the Arrow as an export aircraft. I would contend that the best thing about building an expensive model that has all the bells and whistles is that its also possible then to build an inexpensive stripped down model. I really wouldn't rule out the possibility that the US Air Force wouldn't be interested in it either, if nothing else then to fire up US aircraft manufacturers. It would also be possible that a joint Canadian-American company may be formed to build the Arrow on US soil.

Now one wonders how the Arrow would influence the British Aircraft Corporation's TSR-2.

Canada could afford Louis St. Laurent's programs, we could not afford Trudeau's programs. Is Trudeau butterflied? Because regardless of weaker late 50s/early 60s economic performance that's going to leave the country a heck of a lot better off in the 70s through to the late 90s.

Anyway, I'm interested if you're planning to continue. If you need help with Canadian politics, I can probably do that .

Damn it couldn't we have use the Avro Arrow to conquer the world!

David S. Poepoe:The problem with making the Avro Arrow an export aircraft (and I believe it's been raised before) is that the thing is a pure-bred fighter aircraft. This coupled with it's expense even in a stripped down version makes it a very tough sell. The only other nations that have a need for said aircraft are ones with a fairly large national aero industry themselves.

As for effects on the American aero industry, I doubt the invention of the Arrow would make any significant impact. Perhaps the F-15 is sped up due to the Soviet's speeding up the MiG 25.

To be honest the TSR-2 is a subject I haven't looked into so I can't comment as of yet.

Electric Monk: Without Laurent's loss in 1957, the transition from the "Old Guard" of the Liberal Party is going to be a lot more gradual than OTL. Pearson's cabinet in TTL far more resembles that of his predecessor than that of his OTL cabinet as a result. An interesting knock on effect is that the movement to replace the Canadian Flag doesn't gather steam under Pearson and remains a fanciful opinion.

Trudeau will most likely be butterflied away, shunned from the Liberal party to to the persistent hierarchy and perhaps joining the CCF...I honestly haven't decided yet...

Redem: Sorry mate, doesn't look that way.

On that note, will the CCF merge with the political wing of the Canadian Labour Congress to create the NDP as in OTL?

Dan1988 said:

On that note, will the CCF merge with the political wing of the Canadian Labour Congress to create the NDP as in OTL?

Click to expand...

I don't see why not. Tommy Douglas had the confidence of both sides, and merged they had more power than in OTL. Mind you, I really don't see how Diefenbaker could lose an election that in OTL was the biggest majority in Canadian history.

And as for Trudeau, he was already in the Liberals by 1960, had a name for himself (by fighting with Duplessis, which he first got famous for) and was a rising star. Perhaps he comes along later, perhaps for the early 1970s.

The Arrow was expensive but it was also technologically extremely advanced, and its performance as mentioned was at that time way beyond anything anybody else had. Yes, a full-spec Arrow woulda been very expensive, but for countries with money to spend on such aircraft it would be a tantalizing option. The US would probably want to make a deal to make the things, because compared to the US' jets at the time the Arrow was way, WAY ahead.

Sounds like Concorde.

TheMann said:

And as for Trudeau, he was already in the Liberals by 1960, had a name for himself (by fighting with Duplessis, which he first got famous for) and was a rising star. Perhaps he comes along later, perhaps for the early 1970s.

Click to expand...

OK, so we have Trudeau fighting the "Great Darkness", which is interesting to say the least. So what would make him "cross the floor"?

Cool timeline. Consider warming up the Cold War. That would increase the Arrow's standing/marketability.

An uncanceled Arrow might also result in a Anglo-Canadian/Commonwealth space program.

fortyseven said:

Cool timeline. Consider warming up the Cold War. That would increase the Arrow's standing/marketability.

An uncanceled Arrow might also result in a Anglo-Canadian/Commonwealth space program.

Click to expand...

Canadian colonies on the moon

But Redem, the "colonies" would be shared with the UK, the Caribbean counties, Australia, New Zealand, India, and all the Commonwealth members. That would be interesting unto itself.

The 25th Canadian Parliament

Progressive Conservative Party: 140 seats
Liberal Party:98 seats
CCF: 11 seats
Social Credit: 15 seats
Needed for a majority: 133
Total Number of Seats: 265

The 25th Canadian Parliament would mark a turning point for Canada. For the first time since 1935 the Progressive Conservative, or Tory party had control of the house of commons. Not only had they regained control, but they had done so and achieved a majority mandate guaranteeing Conservative Government until 1967. So in the aftermath of the 1962 election E. Davie Fulton, the country’s first PM from British Columbia, began to go about business.

Shortly after taking power, Fulton was confronted with one of the biggest crises of the Cold War era. “The Cuban Missile Crisis” as it came to be known, was the closest the world had ever gotten to nuclear war. Fortunately, for Fulton, and for the rest of the world, cooler heads prevailed. Fulton however was lauded for his exemplary handling of the crisis, having recognized the severity of the situation from the outset.

Following the resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Fulton set about achieving all that he had campaigned to do. Abandoning his predecessor’s fiscal policies, Fulton adopted a fiscally conservative mindset and by 1963 had balanced the budget and begun to pay off the debt accumulated during the 5 years of Liberal/CCF minority governments. In addition to all this, Fulton took a page out of the USA’s book and cut taxes hoping to revitalize the Canadian economy. All told, Fulton’s active right wing economic policies proved to be refreshing to many Canadians and the subsequent economic recovery was also quite remarkable.

Fulton would also be credited with saving the Canadian aero industry. Following the Avro Arrow debacle, the nation’s aero industry was struggling to make ends meet. Though the RCAF had indeed ordered the Arrow, the amount was less than half the projected number. Further attempts to export the plane turned up no leads leaving the Canadian public straddled with an erroneously expensive fighter plane that would probably never see action. Despite cutting back on the number of Arrows to be purchased by the RCAF, Fulton struck a compromise, Canadair was granted a license to produce copies of the American F-104 Starfighter, they in conjunction with Avro were commissioned to modify the Starfighter and produce a suitable fighter designed primarily for export.

The result would be the CF-104 Thunderbird, one of the best fighters of the 60’s and 70’s and a fighter that would continue to be upgraded and see service into the 21st century. Key to the Thunderbird’s success was the selection of the Orenda PS-13 Iroquois as the primary power plant and the redesign of the Starfighter’s wing and other control surfaces eliminating many troublesome control features. The result was a completely different aircraft that was nearly unparalleled as it came into service in the mid 1960’s. It’s excellent performance, multi-role capability, and low cost relative to other comparable fighters allowed it to quickly supersede other export fighters marketed by the USA, UK, and France.

Fulton, Avro, and the rest of Canada soon realized they had a hit on their hands as orders poured in from around the world. Various foreign companies were granted licence by Lockheed and Canadair/Avro to produce the CF-104. It would remain in production in one variant or another until the 1980’s when it was surpassed by more advanced aircraft but it would be upgraded and remain in service with many nations until the 21st century. Despite the fact that it was slightly more expensive than the F-5 it was a far better aircraft, and thus attracted more buyers.

The Canadian Military, under Fulton would continue to expand both in quality and quantity. Poor relations with US Presidents JFK and LBJ would see Fulton decline to bring Canada into the debacle of the Vietnam War, a feat that would earn him praise in later years. The Avro Arrow would be paraded as an example of the great achievements of the Canadian Aerospace industry, a fact that would be recognized when the Canadian Space Agency was asked to cooperate with NASA to put a man on the moon by the 1970’s. (*In OTL, following the cancellation of the Avro Arrow program a large number of Canadian scientists would head south and join NASA becoming integral parts of the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo program. In TTL with the Avro Arrow coming to completion and the retention of the Canadian Aero Industry

Yet despite all of these achievements, Fulton’s greatest achievement would be patriating the Canadian Constitution. Despite early proposals of adding an amending formula to the British North America receiving widespread criticism, Fulton pressed on determined to repatriate the Canadian Constitution. In the end Fulton decided to call a national election in 1967 over the issue in the hopes that it would reinforce his mandate.

The Canadian Federal Election of 1967
The Election of 1967 was one of the most lopsided elections in Canadian history. Campaigning off a strong record in regards to the economy, the military, and a modest proposal to repatriate the Canadian Constitution, the Conservatives under Edmund Davie Fulton seemed set to win yet another majority government. Against them were set the forces of the Liberal Party of Canada under their new leader Paul Martin, the CCF under former Saskatchewan Premier Tommy Douglas, and the Quebec Wing of the Social Credit party under Real Caouette.

The election campaign was one of the most heated in Canadian history, with the populace’s attention caught by Fulton’s ambitious debates with Tommy Douglas and Paul Martin over the Canadian Constitution. In the end, repatriating the constitution is what the election came down to. Election Day 1967 saw the majority of Canadians endorse Fulton’s proposal re-electing the Conservative party to it’s second majority government.

A lacklustre Liberal campaign would see that party lose seats once again to both the Social Credit (in Quebec) and the CCF (in the West), however it remained the official opposition. The CCF under Tommy Douglas would rebound and gain the largest amount of seats yet taken in a Federal election, 33. Meanwhile the Social Credit would gain a handful of seats as well resting comfortably at 25. Considerable vote splitting would also occur during the election with the PC’s coming up the middle in many ridings due to the left-wing vote being split between the Liberals and the CCF.

Following the election of 1967, Canadian provincial governments began to feel considerable pressure to support Fulton’s proposed constitutional reform leading to the Canada Act of 1968 being passed in Great Britain followed by the Constitution Act of 1968 in Canada. These acts would prove to be the highlight of Fulton’s tenure as PM.

The 26th Canadian Parliament
Makeup
*Progressive Conservative party: 136 seats
Liberal Party: 71
CCF: 33
Social Credit: 25
Total number of Seats: 265
Seats needed to form a government:133

Fulton’s second term as Prime Minister and the 2nd consecutive Tory majority government would begin with a Bang and continue on from there. Having eliminated the deficit and the resurgent debt caused by 5 years of Liberal/CCF rule, Fulton’s Progressive Conservatives began to loosen the purse strings and begin to fund more social programs. While continuing to balance the budget the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Act was expanded with the Government paying 60% of the costs of basic health care. This was to be supplemented by private companies and marked the continuation of the Canadian Public/Private Health care system.

Fulton would also succeed in amending the Canadian Constitution to include a Bill of Rights. The Canadian Bill of rights in many ways resembled that of the United States and continued to enshrine property rights despite the vociferous opposition of CCF leader Tommy Douglas. To many Canadians however, the inclusion of a Bill of Rights was a natural progression of events following the repatriation of the Canadian constitution.

Foreign policy was another of Fulton’s successes during his tenure as Prime Minister, having managed to avoid the debacle of Vietnam, Fulton continued to strengthen Canada’s place within NATO and the free world. The Election of Richard Nixon in 1968, saw relations warm considerably between Canada and America as Fulton and Nixon got along famously fostering a strong friendship that continued after both had left office. Fulton would support Nixon’s plan of “Vietnamization” and would see to it that South Vietnam received a measure of Canadian support in the form of military equipment and volunteers.

A crowning moment for the Fulton administration would occur in 1969 when Thomas Stafford and Canadian Jack Woodman landed on the moon with Apollo 10 (increased Canadian involvement in the Lunar Module program sped up the schedule and the Lunar Module was tested on Apollo 8 instead of Apollo 9 leading to an earlier joint landing with Apollo 10). Both American and Canadian flags were planted on the moon along with grandiose statements about “The Brotherhood of Free peoples”.

Buoyed by this moon landing, and further joint Apollo missions (Apollo 12, 14,and 16), the remainder of Fulton’s term was a bit anti-climactic. Further constitutional change was attempted in the form of Senate Reform but was shut down by none other than the Canadian Senate. Nevertheless, Fulton’s strong record spoke for itself and coupled with several other factors would see the Conservatives elected to their 3rd Majority government in 1972.

The Election of 1972

The election of 1972 would set somewhat of a precedent for Canada as it was the first time since the 19th century that the Conservative party would win a third Majority government in a row. Key factors to this electoral victory would prove to be the incredible record of the incumbent Prime Minister E. Davie Fulton, yet another lacklustre campaign by the Liberals once again under Paul Martin Senior, and the emergence of the revitalized CCF, now reformed as The New Democratic Party with it’s charismatic leader Pierre Trudeau.

The emergence of the NDP and its new leader would be a key factor in the outcome of the election. Described by one Liberal as “The Best Liberal Leader we never had” Pierre Trudeau was shunned by the hierocratic Liberal party in the mid 1960’s but soon found a place in the CCF under Tommy Douglas. Though he would not run for office until 1970, Trudeau’s influence was key to merging the CCF with the Canadian Labour Congress and forming the New Democratic Party along with Tommy Douglas. Trudeau would become the iconic leader of the movement and see its powerbase shift substantially to the east. Trudeau would campaign aggressively in Eastern as well as Western Canada.

This coupled with yet another weak campaign by the Liberal Party under Paul Martin and an aggressive campaign by the Social Credit Party under Real Caouette would turn Quebec’s 50 ridings into a 3 way free for all. This coupled with a large number of vote splitting cases in Ontario, the Maritimes, and Western Canada would see Fulton’s Progressive Conservative party win its largest majority to date. The Liberal party would just barely hang on to the title of Official opposition and would fail to rectify the situation in nominating Paul Hellyer as their new leader. It was quickly becoming apparent that the star of the Canadian Liberal party was fading fast.

Election Results
Total Seats: 265
Needed to form government: 133
*Progressive Conservative party(Fulton): 149 seats
Liberal Party (Martin): 51
CCF (Trudeau): 48
Social Credit (Caouette): 17
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So whaddya think? I'd love to hear thoughts on the Alternate CF-104, I'm sorta picturing a modified CL-1200 Lancer. Workable?

I realize I've neglected the whole Quebec issue, I'll be covering that next time around.

Any further thoughts/constructive criticism are welcome!

Again, I ask - how did Trudeau get into the CCF, and how did he get shunned? Remember that he was already making a name for himself in the 1950s, fighting Duplessis and the "Great Darkness" which some have called fascist.

Dan1988 said:

Again, I ask - how did Trudeau get into the CCF, and how did he get shunned? Remember that he was already making a name for himself in the 1950s, fighting Duplessis and the "Great Darkness" which some have called fascist.

Click to expand...

Remember in TTL, the Liberal party is far more heirarchical than OTL, Trudeau's not going to be going very far if he enters Federal politics. IIRC he wasn't too thrilled with the Liberal party in OTL around 1965 but was convinced to run anyways. In TTL the fierce debate surrounding the repatriation of the Canadian constitution and the desparity of performance between the Liberal and CCF's performance draws Trudeau towards the CCF. The formation of the New Democratic party (later than OTL due to a stronger showing for the CCF in the late 50's) draws Trudeau in. Other than that it's a good fit, Trudeau was always on the left of the Liberal party in OTL, besides in TTL the Liberals are a bit further right than OTL.

That's going to create some problems with the "Révolution tranquille", when Jean Lesage gets elected in 1960 and brings the PLQ into power. At least in OTL they were Liberals, even though the PLQ isn't part of the federal Liberal Party. But Trudeau a CCF man? Some people are NOT going to be happy.

Left as Trudeau was, he's not gonna get along well with Douglas. And besides that, the Liberals by 1965 were starting to see their rough runs at the polls (Pearson never had a majority, don't forget) and the younger members led Trudeau into the scene. If those young members gravitate towards the CCF/NDP, by the mid 70s the Liberals will be really in trouble as their old blood will be tired and old. Could this mean the collapse of the Liberals and perhaps the NDP as Canada's second party?

And the economic problems following the oil crisis caused lots of problems for the Canadian economy, including big economic problems and near-runaway inflation by 1974-75. I don't think those will change, so how does Fulton handle it? Trudeau did that by freezing wages and prices, which caused an uproar.

And if Trudeau does make it to power in 1977 (which could be the case following the economic malaise of the 1970s, that's what brought Joe Clark to power in 1979 in OTL) does he still try the NEP? If he does, Conservatives own the west for a generation, probably more if its a Westerner leading the Conservatives.

The F-104 was already fast to begin with, the addition of the PS-13 powerplant would probably make it even faster. The CF-104/Arrow combination would make for perhaps the best air force on the planet for the Canadians. Could that make the Canadian Navy decide to get a CV or two? Perhaps an older American CV?

Or maybe combine a CV program with AECL's nuclear skills to make a CVN? The US had the Nimitz class by the mid-1970s, perhaps a handful of Carriers for the Commonwealth big countries (Britain, India, Canada, Australia, maybe even South Africa) to become a rival to the USN on the Oceans?

And if that proves to be the case, would Canada and Britain try to be Commonwealth defenders? I was thinking getting involved in nasty fights around the world - India/Pakistan for sure, perhaps Canada helping Britain in the Falklands in 1982 or other more farther out ideas, in places like Malaysia, Angola, Rhodesia, et cetera?

Looking further, could that see Avro, Canadair and Bombardier (or a combination of the above) trying to go against Boeing and Airbus in the airliner market?

"Shortly after taking power, Fulton was confronted with one of the biggest crises of the Cold War era. “The Cuban Missile Crisis” as it came to be known, was the closest the world had ever gotten to nuclear war. Fortunately, for Fulton, and for the rest of the world, cooler heads prevailed. Fulton however was lauded for his exemplary handling of the crisis, having recognized the severity of the situation from the outset."

Could you clarify this for me please. Does Canada become directly involved with the Cuban Missile Crisis?

David S Poepoe said:

"Shortly after taking power, Fulton was confronted with one of the biggest crises of the Cold War era. “The Cuban Missile Crisis” as it came to be known, was the closest the world had ever gotten to nuclear war. Fortunately, for Fulton, and for the rest of the world, cooler heads prevailed. Fulton however was lauded for his exemplary handling of the crisis, having recognized the severity of the situation from the outset."

Could you clarify this for me please. Does Canada become directly involved with the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Click to expand...

If a war breaks, guess which country is between the US and USSR? Canada.

Fulton would be on the line to NORAD trying to keep abreast of things, but would almost certainly have to put the RCAF on alert.

Part of Canada's Ecomonic problems in the Seventies was the slow reponse of Canada, to the US decidsion to leave the Silver standard in 1964.
[?Any one knew if the US even consulted Canada First?]
The US came out with the Copper-Clad Slug whe all knew and love in 1965, but it wasn't till late 1966, that Canada did the same,
For over a year, Millions of dollars in Canadian Silver Coins were sucked south of the border,
Before this Canadain and US money traded 1-1, But after this Canada's Dollar Has never again been able to regain Parity.