WI. The WAllies get to Berlin first.

As above.
If, for whatever reason, the USSR is held up in the east, where could the allies meet up? How would this change the map of Europe and would Russia still be willing to go to war with Japan?
I haven't seen this on here before.
Hope you know what I mean.:)
 
Result: a whole lot of Americans, Brits and Canadians die to capture some territory that will be handed over to the Russians at the end of the war. The border were already decided, so nothing or at least very little would change. Sadly.
 
That is why I think Eisenhower would have his troops surround Berlin. I US Commonwealth troops would take Prague and if there is time Warsaw.
 
That is why I think Eisenhower would have his troops surround Berlin. I US Commonwealth troops would take Prague and if there is time Warsaw.
OTL US troops could capture Praque. They were ordered not to. Apparently 1 American Jeep went to Prague, drove around a little and returned to the American lines.
 
OTL US troops could capture Praque. They were ordered not to. Apparently 1 American Jeep went to Prague, drove around a little and returned to the American lines.

Prague was in a state of complete chaos by the end of the war, it wouldn't have been as leisurely as that.
 
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Prague was in a state of complete chaos by the end of the war, it wouldn't have been a leisurely as that.
It wasn't leasurely, they came back quite bloody. But effectively the story is the same. One American Jeep rode to Prague and returned. The americans could have captured it relatively easy, if they had decided to do so. They did not, as it would be handed over to Stalin after the war and it wasn't worth the life of American troops (relatively easy in a war still means that people will die).
 
Yeah, rather than bull into it I'd see them more surrounding the city and taking their time. Depending on what the situation was in the east with the Soviets either to wait for them to arrive and help if they were fairly close or possibly to by-pass it and maybe look at moving into Czechoslovakia or Poland if the Soviets hadn't already reached there yet.
 
They did not, as it would be handed over to Stalin after the war and it wasn't worth the life of American troops (relatively easy in a war still means that people will die).

:eek:

Why do you think this?

IIRC Czechoslovakia was not occupied by the Red Army (apart from a small piece which was annexed) and the communists didn't take power to 1948.

There was no reason for US troops not to go to Prague.
 
:eek:

Why do you think this?

IIRC Czechoslovakia was not occupied by the Red Army (apart from a small piece which was annexed) and the communists didn't take power to 1948.

There was no reason for US troops not to go to Prague.

Because the planned map redrawing was already all but decided at Yalta.
 
Perhaps the Western Allies sacked up and decided to stop the Reds. The only problem with that is now the West looks like the aggressor, breaking pre-determined deals and such
 
The zones of influence were already divided. I'm sure the Soviets wouldn't have minded some help though capturing Berlin was a major propaganda victory for the USSR in the end.
 
Because the planned map redrawing was already all but decided at Yalta.

Nothing of the kind was agreed to at Yalta, the very most being that Germany would be divided into Zones of Occupation, and that the Soviets agreed to allow a French Zone, though only at the expense of the British and American Zones. You could conceivably establish a French Zone that takes from the other three equally, but I'm not sure how it would be done, or if there are any such maps.
 
Regarding Prague, this might help some. Found it here:

In short, it seems like the advance on Prague was halted due to fears it might inflame tensions between the Soviets and the Western Allies. However the order was made by Eisenhower himself, and not by any higher-ups; its specifically hinted at that had the Joint Chiefs ordered he move to secure Prague, he would have done so.

Near the end of April the British Chiefs of Staff pointed out that the Western Allies could derive remarkable political advantages from liberating Prague and as much of the rest of Czechoslovakia as possible. General Marshall passed this on to General Eisenhower, adding: "Personally, and aside from all logistic, tactical, or strategical implications, I would be loath to hazard American lives for purely political purposes."

General Eisenhower insisted that the northern thrust-toward Luebeck and Kiel and the southern drive in the direction of Linz and the National Redoubt be given priority. Provided additional means were at hand, he planned to attack the enemy also in Czechoslovakia, Denmark, and Norway. He thought that the Western Allies would be able to deal with Denmark and Norway, but concluded that the Red Army was in a perfect position to clean out Czechoslovakia and would certainly reach Prague before the U.S. forces. He assured General Marshall: "I shall not attempt any move I deem militarily unwise merely to gain a political advantage unless I receive specific orders from the Combined Chiefs of Staff." There is nothing to indicate that they gave him any such orders.

The Supreme Commander informed the Russians on 30 April that, while the operational position was being adjusted along the Elbe and the Mulde, he would cross the lower Elbe to establish a firm flank near Wismar. From the headwaters of the Mulde southward, he intended to hold the line approximately along the 1937 frontiers of Czechoslovakia. Later, Allied forces could advance to Karlsbad, Pilsen, and Budejovice. On the southern flank, he proposed to advance in the general area of Linz. If at any time the situation required the Allies to advance farther, he was willing to take such action.

When, on 4 May, General Eisenhower indicated his willingness to move from the Pilsen-Karlsbad area to the line of the Elbe and Moldau and to clear their western banks, the Russians strongly dissented. To avoid possible incidents, General Antonov asked General Eisenhower not to move his forces in Czechoslovakia east of the line Budejovice-Pilsen-Karlsbad. He pointedly reminded the Supreme Commander that the Red Army had stopped east of Wismar on the Baltic at his request, and hoped by the same token that the Allies would stop their advance in Czechoslovakia. General Eisenhower agreed not to move farther. Thus he left Prague to be liberated by the Russians.

SHAEF was notified on 5 May that Czech partisans had liberated Prague. Before the day's end, German armored forces converged on the city from outside Prague and on the following morning Czechoslovak representatives asked for aid. They also requested that Czechoslovak forces, then with General Bradley's army group, be sent into Prague. Czechoslovak appeals were also made directly to Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr., whose forces were near Pilsen. This word reached Col. Anthony J. Drexel Biddle, Jr., of the European Allied Contact Section at SHAEF, on the morning of 7 May after the Germans had surrendered at Reims. He naturally said that Prague was included in the terms of surrender and that hostilities had ended.

Unfortunately, seizure of the radio station in Prague by Czechoslovak partisans had led to confusion on the part of Germans in Czechoslovakia, who were inclined to discredit the report and continue fighting. Therefore, although the war was ended, Prague was still in danger from the German forces near that city. Mr. Churchill wired General Eisenhower on 7 May that he hoped the latter's statements as to his intentions would not prevent an advance to Prague if forces were available and they did not meet the Russians first.

More urgent appeals came from the Czechoslovaks on 7 and 8 May, some being made directly to Mr. Churchill. When the Czechs talked later to SHAEF officials, they were told that the proper procedure had been followed, since if Mr. Churchill felt that something could be done he had the facilities for taking up the matter directly with the U.S. Government.

General Eisenhower continued to honor General Antonov's request of 5 May that the U.S. forces remain west of the Pilsen-Karlsbad line, while keeping the Russians informed of Czechoslovak pleas for aid. Thus, when on 8 May the Czechoslovaks asked for bombers to be sent to Prague, SHAEF forwarded the message to Moscow with the comment that no action was being taken. On the same day a report was passed on to the effect that Czech Partisans were under attack by the Germans. The Czechoslovaks were notified that Allied forces had stopped at the request of the Russians and that all appeals for help should go to them.

In order to stop the enemy attacks, a U.S. patrol was sent with a German representative of Admiral Karl Doenitz' headquarters to Field Marshal Ferdinand Schoerner, who commanded the forces in Czechoslovakia, and warned him of the serious consequences which would follow if he did not speedily bring hostilities to an end. General Eisenhower warned all German soldiers by radio that any continuation of hostilities would be severely punished by the Allies.

The Russian forces ultimately entered Prague on 12 May. Some eighteen days passed before they gave permission for Czechoslovaks in General Bradley's army group to come to the city.
 
Regarding Prague, this might help some. Found it here:

In short, it seems like the advance on Prague was halted due to fears it might inflame tensions between the Soviets and the Western Allies. However the order was made by Eisenhower himself, and not by any higher-ups; its specifically hinted at that had the Joint Chiefs ordered he move to secure Prague, he would have done so

I'm somewhat sceptical of the arguments advanced by Eisenhower and his supporters on the motives for the late war decisions, especially that they were made for military reasons only.

There was a deep reluctance on the part of the US to get involved in the Balkans and Eastern Europe - eg Slovakia was not included in the initial definition of the European Theatre, plus there is the possibility that Eisenhower was thinking about the presidency and incurring casualties.

One point to note from the source you quoted:

He pointedly reminded the Supreme Commander that the Red Army had stopped east of Wismar on the Baltic at his request, and hoped by the same token that the Allies would stop their advance in Czechoslovakia. General Eisenhower agreed not to move farther. Thus he left Prague to be liberated by the Russians.

At Wismar the Russian stopped when they found the British already in possession of the town and the Germans had surrendered - in Czechoslovakia the US and Russian forces had not yet made contact and fighting with the Germans was ongoing.
 
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I had understood that spheres of influence were agreed by Churchill and Stalin in the fall of 1944, well before Yalta
Every state in the region other than Czechoslovakia and Albania was mentioned in the agreement; Albania I assume was considered part of Yugoslavia, or that it would be.
 
We had something like this going on the recent thread of Monty being SHAEF.

Let us just imagine that anybody else but Eisenhover is SHAEF (OK, nearly anybody else).

Let us also assume that the Rheine is crossed in September 1944, Schelde cleared and it is now full force ahead.

Insofar as Germany had very little with which to stop such a move, W. Allieds are bulleting across Germany.

Can they stop and leave a rather big part of Germany un-occupied? USSR were not even close to Germany in September 1944.

If this actually had happened, they had to carry on, never mind any occupation zones.

Consequences:

1) No East-Germany as I cannot see Churchill just handing it over
2) FDR might have seen that "Good ol' Joe" was not all that he pretended to be
3) Poland: Churchill would have been able to dictate to Stalin regarding the future of Poland

I can see a lot of other things going in Eastern Europe with such a scenario.

Or, my "private" horror movie: An Early Unthinkable

Ivan
 
Consequences:

1) No East-Germany as I cannot see Churchill just handing it over
2) FDR might have seen that "Good ol' Joe" was not all that he pretended to be
3) Poland: Churchill would have been able to dictate to Stalin regarding the future of Poland

There's definitely going to be an East Germany, it was one of the few territorial agreements that had been worked out and put down in writing. Considering how the Germans were considered by the end of the war and once the Final Solution becomes public knowledge I can't really see him sparing them much sympathy when to do so would violate one of the few concrete agreements and effectively give Stalin a free hand since the western Allies aren't sticking to their word. Plus by the end of the war he's the weakest of the Big Three so trying it just wouldn't work. FDR certainly wouldn't go for it, and throwing out that he does if not a 180 in his views on Stalin then seriously change them without a major cause just isn't going to fly.

I think the best scenario that's possible would be for them to ignore Berlin and any other major static holdouts, simply surround them with troops to stop any major movements, and then push on into Poland and Czechoslovakia. And even for that you would need to seriously convince FDR.
 
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