Just like what it says on the tin, would it be the death of Anglicanism? Would there be a violent unification of Scotland and England?
What would the repercussions be?
What would the repercussions be?
What if Queen Elizabeth I married King Philip II of spain and had issue?
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why would she do this, there are at lest a few issues, A) she's against marrying any one, and B) to marry Philip she's have to marry her sister's Widower, in doing so saying such an act is ok before the eyes of God, thus saying she's a bastard born to a mistress not a heir born to a wife
Eh, there are bigger reasons against than that. For instance: she's a Protestant whereas Mary was Catholic, and while she may not be easily browbeaten, marrying Philip is inviting a new Catholic foothold in England. Also, why would she want to (again) subordinate England to Hapsburg ambition?
Now thats very extreme
! Why would you think that? If Elizabeth married Philip II I doubt she would be overthrown and executed. I mean Mary I had a much more extreme religious and domestic policy and she wasn't overthrown. If anything Elizabeth, if she married Philip, would be a moderate Catholic rather then Protestant and either way I feel that Protestant or Catholic, she would be able to survive and prosper.Now thats very extreme
True perhaps, but your forggeting one part of the equation...Phillip....theres so many reasons why the protestants, or even moderate catholics, would want him gone anyway they could
But it's precisely because of Mary's policy that the English would want to get rid of Elizabeth if she turned out to betray their hopes (which this would). "Moderate Catholic" and "marrying Philip II" aren't going to be considered compatible.
She's just cut herself off from the basis (OTL) of support for her - her being a queen who - at least professedly - cared about her subjects and their interests.
She's just cut herself off from the basis (OTL) of support for her - her being a queen who - at least professedly - cared about her subjects and their interests.
Personally I really don't understand why marrying Philip II would be such a problem. I mean its a very good solution: England gets a powerful alliance continental alliance with possible trade and colonial benefits and an absentee consort for Elizabeth. One of the main arguments about Elizabeth not wanting to marry was that she feared a male consort would attempt to control her government, was it not? If she married Philip she gets someone who would be able to interfere because he couldn't physically live in London full time and I doubt that many English government officials would listen to Philip over Elizabeth, not to mention,unlike her sister, Elizabeth didn't need a man to validate her so she's much less likely to listen to his advise. Finally, the marriage could be negotiated with the same terms as Mary I's was, with the next King of England getting the Netherlands as well, so perhaps with Elizabeth I as Queen of Spain she would be able to mitigate some of the problems that led to the Dutch revolt in the first place. Not very Likely I'll admit but it could be possible.
Edit: Also with Philip II people tend to forget that we wasn't nearly as bad at the beginning of his reign and, during his time as King-Consort in England he was very respectful of English laws and tradition. There is no evidence that he attempted to have any Spanish appointed to any government positions in England during Mary I's reign. So in viewing this from the perspective of someone living in 1558, there would be little objections to the match. I mean yes, thanks to Mary Calais was lost but the English Court knew Elizabeth was very much the oppisite of her sister so there would be a very small chance of her joining with Spain in a war against France.If she was marrying hem later, say after the problems with the Dutch began, then it would be a whole different ball game, but she's not.
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Sorry to double post but this idea has really taken hold of me. What if Elizabeth was Catholic from the get go? Perhaps influenced early in her life by someone (I don't know who yet but will do research) that the Catholic teachings were, for lake of a better word, better, then Protestant ones? Later in life she sides with her sister against her brother Edward's religious policies and rides with her in her short struggle with Jane Grey and the Privy Council. As a loyal Catholic there would be no attempts to find a way to get rid of her because of her religion or at least from Mary's advisers. However, when the Protestant burnings begin in earnest Elizabeth, with her humanist education, is horrified and vows not to rule in such a manner, thus being more moderate than her sister. If she is still single when she succeeds her sister she would then be a a very good position to marry Philip II and not go overboard like Mary I.
No, viewing this from the perspective of someone living in 1558, there would be huge problems.
Elizabeth being the opposite of her sister doesn't mean squat. She's obligated as Philip's wife to obey him.
There's nothing gained from the situation for England. Nothing.
As for your second post - why would Elizabeth be horrified in regards to the burnings? A devout Catholic in this era might find them unrealistic policy, but not a crime of bigotry the way we see it today.
And as the next in line to the throne and not getting any younger, why wouldn't she be married?
Yes. The marriage could only come about if Elizabeth converted to Catholicism*, which would mean rejecting the role of head of the Church of England. Her child would be brought up to do the same.
45+ years is too long for the Anglicans to wait for a ruler willing to take up that role. English protestants -- a persecuted minority -- would affiliate with a different denomination.
* I know it isn't likely, but it's the thread's premise. Henry IV of France did it, so Elizabeth could too.
Why?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
What England has to do in order for this to work is to somehow have a successful Counter-Reformation that keeps it Catholic. (how about after Elizabeth is born, Henry VIII dies early?)
The principal objection to the marriage and it was one that was made at the time was that a) Philip would need a papal dispensation to marry his dead wife's sister - which he would probably have got b) that dispensation would have been the same one granted to Henry VII in order to permit the marriage of Catherine of Aragon and the future Henry VIII - the source of the English schism.
Whilst Elizabeth had followed the advice of Cecil in not reopening the can of worms that was her legitimacy unlike Mary. It was still an issue and marrying Philip would have reopened it.
Elizabeth's 'moderate' Protestantism wouldn't rule out a catholic marriage but she was well aware that there were more extreme protestants at court (who thought the Elizabethan settlement did not go far enough) who would deeply resent any catholic marriage.
It is also true that until the catholic threat to her reign became more obvious most of her 'moderate' catholic subjects were left alone.
In terms of the loyalty of the ordinary commons of England - Elizabeth was seen and was very keen to be seen as one of them - she played on their increasing sense of nationalism and xenophobia. Philip would have been the worst choice for her in terms of her domestic popularity he was wrongly blamed for the worst excesses of Mary's reign (persecution of Protestant martyrs etc).
He was also blamed rightly for England's war with France which cost them Calais.
On the surface he would have offered international security but he would also have expected English support in his contintental conflicts with France and the Dutch which would have been equally disastrous for Elizabeth's domestic popularity.
Whilst Elizabeth had followed the advice of Cecil in not reopening the can of worms that was her legitimacy unlike Mary. It was still an issue and marrying Philip would have reopened it.
Elizabeth's 'moderate' Protestantism wouldn't rule out a catholic marriage but she was well aware that there were more extreme protestants at court (who thought the Elizabethan settlement did not go far enough) who would deeply resent any catholic marriage.
It is also true that until the catholic threat to her reign became more obvious most of her 'moderate' catholic subjects were left alone.
In terms of the loyalty of the ordinary commons of England - Elizabeth was seen and was very keen to be seen as one of them - she played on their increasing sense of nationalism and xenophobia. Philip would have been the worst choice for her in terms of her domestic popularity he was wrongly blamed for the worst excesses of Mary's reign (persecution of Protestant martyrs etc).
He was also blamed rightly for England's war with France which cost them Calais.
On the surface he would have offered international security but he would also have expected English support in his contintental conflicts with France and the Dutch which would have been equally disastrous for Elizabeth's domestic popularity.
Away from his fathers influence & the inquisition i would not be surprised if he converted to be a protestant.
something like this? 1568 - Don Carlos manages to escape spain and flees to britain, he converts to protestantism and marries Elizabeth
What if Philip convinced the Pope to grant England ecclesiastical autonomy, while still recognizing the Church of England as being in 'communion' with the body of Christ, and standing with the Papacy, Empire and Spain against the heretic onslaught. Don Carlos was offered as a husband left right and center, and Elizabeth was pissed off when he wasn't offered to her. Don Carlos is sent to England before hitting his head/going batshit crazy, with the Netherlands thrown in to sweeten the deal (as well as the crown of either Naples or Chile to make him Elizabeth's equal).
A very unique Idea but I think Don Carlos was too young. I mean in 1558 he was 13 so they would have to wait at least 3 years maybe longer before the marriage can take place. Also, if Elizabeth married Carlos it was mealy putting off the enevitable Union with Spain. Marrying Philip, on the other hand, would mean a marriage of monarchs and, with a male heir already existing, any son from Elizabeth and Philip would just inherit England, and possibly the Netherlands (that was in the Original marriage contract between Mary I and Philip). Plus, if Philip marries Elizabeth, then Don Carlos can marry Elizabeth de Valois, thus continuing the mair Spanish line (Don Carlos was inbreed but it wasn't until 1562, when he fell down a fight of stairs and suffered severe head injuries, that he became wild and unpredictable). Personally, I think that ecclesiastical autonomy for England is a very good idea but marriage with Philip II would make more since, for reasons I pointed out earlier. If Calais could be retaken by Spain and England, the English anger at Spain could be lessened. (If Elizabeth decides to marry Philip, then perhaps an effort could be made to retake Calais and gifted to England in the subsequent peace as a wedding gift). Speaking of the points I brought up and my possible scenario of a moderate Catholic Elizabeth, any thoughts? Oh and if Carlos would marry Elizabeth, Philip would probably make him King of Naples, Naples being the throne Philip was given before his own marriage to Mary I.
Or if Elizabeth manages to hang on to Henry VIII's solution - a Roman Catholic church, without the Pope. That would need some significant PODs during Edw VI's reign, but if Henry had devoted more attention to what would happen during his son's minority it might be possible. Edw VI follows in his fathers path , instead of being "captured" philosophically by the reformers. Then Mary's changes are basically limited to reinstating Papal obedience, Elizabeth restores the Supreme Head on Earth claim.
Neither Philip nor his father had so much love for the Papacy that they would be horrified by such a position.
(I don't suppose there is any way to get any of them to convert to Orthodox ? )
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Unless if you are hoping for an Orthodox Christian Elizabeth. One of my TLs had a surviving son of Henry VIII (who IOTL was stillborn) succeed him as Richard IV, and Princess Elizabeth Tudor ends up marrying Tsar Ivan IV. Of course, I also had other PoDs as well.