Yeah Orthodox is out of the question but a semi-catholic England wouldn't be out of the realm of acceptance by Catholic Europe. Compared to Edward VI I feel that Europe would the Catholics would breath a sigh of relief. A better idea would be to have Henry more invested in making sure both Edward and Elizabeth were brought up Catholic or at least his version of Catholic, that way a Moderate Catholic Elizabeth would be possible. It would also lessen the threats to Liz during Mary I's reign if she is a devote semi-catholic instead of suspected protestant. Also, people tend to forget that it was Philips influence that kept Elizabeth from being excommunicated during the first decade of her reign. So it is certainly possible that,with Elizabeth semi-catholic, Philip would help keep Elizabeth from being excemunicated and causing a final breach between her and the English Catholics.
What if Queen Elizabeth I married King Philip II of spain and had issue?
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Yeah Orthodox is out of the question but a semi-catholic England wouldn't be out of the realm of acceptance by Catholic Europe. Compared to Edward VI I feel that Europe would the Catholics would breath a sigh of relief. A better idea would be to have Henry more invested in making sure both Edward and Elizabeth were brought up Catholic or at least his version of Catholic, that way a Moderate Catholic Elizabeth would be possible. It would also lessen the threats to Liz during Mary I's reign if she is a devote semi-catholic instead of suspected protestant. Also, people tend to forget that it was Philips influence that kept Elizabeth from being excommunicated during the first decade of her reign. So it is certainly possible that,with Elizabeth semi-catholic, Philip would help keep Elizabeth from being excemunicated and causing a final breach between her and the English Catholics.
Edward was brought up Protestant largely because his father died while Edward was still a boy. Henry never had any doubt about where he stood. He was a faithful Catholic in every respect - except for acknowledging the Pope as head of the Church of England (he didn't invent that idea, it was a reversion to the position of the CoE before the Synod of Whitby some years before). Oh, and some disrespect of the regular clergy, but he was by no means alone in that.
So if Henry lived a few years longer both his son and Elizabeth would be brought up doctrinally Catholic. So would Mary of course, except that she would admit the supremacy of the Pope.
Make Henry live another 10 years (he'd still only have been 66 when he died, not untoward even then), and continue his practice of burning heretics (as well as hanging traitors) and you probably get a "semi-Catholic" Edward VI and Elizabeth. The latter was always inclined toward Catholicism anyway, but the years of Edwards reign had introduced so strong a degree of Protectionism into England that she must needs bow before the Protestant wind. In fact simply have Henry outlive Edward. (Actually, come to think of it, if he lived 11 years longer he would outlive Mary as well, and the whole thing becomes very simple, a very elegant continuity. )
Perhaps not so unlikely. According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but occasionally it is right) there is a good argument that many of Henry's health problems can be traced to a jousting injury in 1536, which caused the leg ulcers which plagued him for the rest of his life, and, in conjunction with the enforced inactivity thus occasioned, probably were the proximate cause of his death. There is also speculation that the jousting accident may have caused head injury.
Prior to that, Henry was pretty healthy. So, eliminate that injury, and another 10 years doesn't seem very much of an ask .
(Actually, he probably wasn't "obscenely fat" even so. He stood six foot four, and big framed- he was always going to be a heavy man)
Actually, have Henry die in that jousting accident and you probably end up with a Catholic England also. No Edward VI (not yet born), the Act of Supremacy was only two years before, so more easily able to be repealed, and Mary was a young healthy 20 year old woman. Whether a 20 year old unmarried woman could have made good her right to the throne may be another matter, but it is likely than any alternative candidate would be a Catholic also .
Prior to that, Henry was pretty healthy. So, eliminate that injury, and another 10 years doesn't seem very much of an ask .
(Actually, he probably wasn't "obscenely fat" even so. He stood six foot four, and big framed- he was always going to be a heavy man)
Actually, have Henry die in that jousting accident and you probably end up with a Catholic England also. No Edward VI (not yet born), the Act of Supremacy was only two years before, so more easily able to be repealed, and Mary was a young healthy 20 year old woman. Whether a 20 year old unmarried woman could have made good her right to the throne may be another matter, but it is likely than any alternative candidate would be a Catholic also .
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Actually, by the end of his life, he was obscenely fat. Even for a big framed six four man. (I have a dim recollection of reading he was 28 stone, but that sounds excessive.)
And yes, that can be traced back to said injury - but a POD back that far has considerable effects on if there are an Edward (b. 1537) and a queen Elizabeth (b. 1533, but living to adulthood is far from certain in this era).
Well I don't see what can be done about Edward besides Henry leaving strict instructions for his education and Regency and even then it might be ignored, like the Regency Council that was supposed to be set up was ignored in favor of Edward Seymour becoming Lord Protector. With Elizabeth, she came under the influence of her Step-mother, Catherine Parr, a devout Protestant. So the best thing I can think off would be for her to either fall under the spell of a Catholic female relative (perhaps her sister or her cousin Margaret Douglas) or for Henry VIII's last wife to be Catholic. Or a third option would be for provisions to be made for her Catholic education by Henry VIII after her death (perhaps Mary takes custody instead of Katherine Parr).
A longer living Henry VIII is not necessarily going to alter the views of Edward or Elizabeth in terms of religion.
Elizabeth was an extremely well-educated teenager when her father died and Edward a precocious child.
Both of their religious education was of a reformist bent probably orchestrated or certainly approved by Crammer whilst maintaining much of the anglo-catholic symbolism of their father - but it was the reformers who set the agenda with both of them.
Catherine Parr's religious views were certainly Protestant and to a level that she did clash with Henry's opinions and her influence on her younger two step children was important.
Both Edward and Elizabeth had a relatively reasonable relationship with Mary as children - she was kind to both of them. The relationship only became strained later.
It is extremely unlikely that a pro-reform group of councillors ruling for Edward are going to entrust Elizabeth to Mary's care.
Margaret Douglas had a pretty dodgy reputation at this period and again is an unlikely choice.
Elizabeth was an extremely well-educated teenager when her father died and Edward a precocious child.
Both of their religious education was of a reformist bent probably orchestrated or certainly approved by Crammer whilst maintaining much of the anglo-catholic symbolism of their father - but it was the reformers who set the agenda with both of them.
Catherine Parr's religious views were certainly Protestant and to a level that she did clash with Henry's opinions and her influence on her younger two step children was important.
Both Edward and Elizabeth had a relatively reasonable relationship with Mary as children - she was kind to both of them. The relationship only became strained later.
It is extremely unlikely that a pro-reform group of councillors ruling for Edward are going to entrust Elizabeth to Mary's care.
Margaret Douglas had a pretty dodgy reputation at this period and again is an unlikely choice.
I agree on most parts but not with Mary educating Elizabeth. I got the feeling that the Councillors really didn't care about her much in the early days of Edwards reign. Catherine Parr seemed to get custody because she was Henry's widow and because no one else really wanted her. Did Henry make any provision about Elizabeth one way or the other on her guardian? Because I can't seem to find any info about it. Also any suggestions on a female Catholic she could look up to? It seems to me that most ranking female Catholics that could have influenced her were on the out with Henry during the time when Elizabeth was being educated and influenced. Mary would be the only one I could think off that was relatively in Henry's good graces. Perhaps one of her Howard relatives?
Henry's will from memory set out the conditions for Mary and Elizabeth to inherit the throne (namely that they could not marry without the consent of the councillors he had appointed to rule for Edward)
And the amount of their inheritance I can't remember if it left instructions for Elizabeth's continued upbringing but i suspect it was left to the councillors appointed to rule for Edward.
And the amount of their inheritance I can't remember if it left instructions for Elizabeth's continued upbringing but i suspect it was left to the councillors appointed to rule for Edward.
I knew the succession and money points already. So it really didn't make any provisions for Elizabeth's education or guardian. Putting a provision for a Catholic education or naming a Catholic guardian could go a long way but it would remain to be seen if the Council would fallow threw with it nor no. As for a female relative I had a thought: her aunts. Margaret Queen of Scotland was a devout Catholic, so perhaps she could be forced to stay in England and be in a position to influence Elizabeth. Another thought would be for Mary Queen of France to live longer but I don't know if that would cause to many butterflies.
And yet he still proposed. Philip was, in many ways, a practical man. (Also, he seems to have been somewhat sweet on her, though both of them seemed well aware this was NOT going to happen.)
Make Henry die before OTL or better make Katherine Howard his last wife and Queen (and his widow)... The Howards was Catholics and Kathryn very young when she became Queen and was a first cousin of Elizabeth's mother thus is very likely who Lady Elizabeth (or, if her stepmother will became powerful enough, Princess Elizabeth) will be under the tutelage of her stepmother and the influence of their Catholic family... And without the two Katherine's deaths is likely who Elizabeth will be more willing to marry...
What mattered was her title to the throne, which was left intact (or restored) by her father. Bastards could and often did marry people of legitimate birth - La Beltraneja was betrothed to Juan of Asturias, Henry FitzRoy married Mary Howard, the sons of Catherine Grey both got married, etc.
OTL Philip was pleased when Elizabeth reported to his ambassador that they differed on only four or five points. She was certainly happy to give the impression that she was still a devout non-Protestant Christian, merely rejecting Papal jurisdiction over England and with opinions on one or two other issues (clerical marriage, the nature of the communion, etc, I think).
Maybe instead of the Duke of Savoie, Philip marries Elizabeth to Don Carlos during Mary's reign. Elizabeth was very self-conscious of affirming her legitimate royal title - Erik of Sweden was rejected as a marriage candidate for being 'only' an elected king, and therefore Philip's inferior. Most other candidates would be of even lower rank. Carlos, on the other hand, offered Elizabeth's only chance at marrying equally with Mary.
If I'm not mistaken, the church in Sicily was autonomous and subjected to the King. Perhaps Philip forces the Pope to recognize England's autonomy in the same way in order to sweeten the deal.
Hilariously Henry VIII disapproved of Queen Margaret messy marital life and would probably not consider her a suitable governess or tutor for a daughter of his.
Marry his heir to his wife presuntive (and very likely) heiress is a good move for having a better possibility to hold England for long time.
And obviously Philip will declare who in any case the heir of Spain and they heir of England will not be the same people
QEI would never have married Philip BUT -
In the mid 1540s while Henry was negotiating an Alliance with Charles V against Francis I he suggested a triple marriage alliance: Mary was to wed the Emperor himself; Elizabeth was to marry then Prince Philip and Edward was to marry one of Charles' daughters.
Now IF that proposal had been accepted Mary and Elizabeth would have sailed for Spain c. 1545 to a double wedding. Liz would have been twelve and Philip eighteen. Elizabeth would have become in due time Queen of the mightiest kingdom in Europe (and loved it!) and stodgy Philip would have had full benefit of her intelligence and flexibility. Also her charisma. He'd probably been as madly in love with her as he was with Elizabeth of Valois and it's likely she'd have had a huge influence over him. With her as its queen the Spanish empire might have been more successful - and even more dangerous.
In the mid 1540s while Henry was negotiating an Alliance with Charles V against Francis I he suggested a triple marriage alliance: Mary was to wed the Emperor himself; Elizabeth was to marry then Prince Philip and Edward was to marry one of Charles' daughters.
Now IF that proposal had been accepted Mary and Elizabeth would have sailed for Spain c. 1545 to a double wedding. Liz would have been twelve and Philip eighteen. Elizabeth would have become in due time Queen of the mightiest kingdom in Europe (and loved it!) and stodgy Philip would have had full benefit of her intelligence and flexibility. Also her charisma. He'd probably been as madly in love with her as he was with Elizabeth of Valois and it's likely she'd have had a huge influence over him. With her as its queen the Spanish empire might have been more successful - and even more dangerous.
No Don Carlos!
ACK! I mean seriously ACK! he was a nasty piece of work and insane. She'd never have done that.
Even had Elizabeth been willing to jump though hoops (and have Phillip to jump through Papal hoops) to wed, not only would she have instantly trashed her popularity with her subjects but there's a possibility that she herself may have been barren. That could be why she was never did more than tease foreign kings that she COULD marry them if they did such-and-such but never actually made any serious attempt to marry anyone. So, IOW, had they married, it's possible that he'd have found her as barren as her late half-sister and maybe even attempted to get THAT union annulled so he could have someone besides Don Carlos as an eventual heir.
All-in-all, it's best for everyone's sake that Elizabeth said no to his proposal.
All-in-all, it's best for everyone's sake that Elizabeth said no to his proposal.