AHC: Scott beats Amundsen
- Thread starter Color-Copycat
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ccdsah
Donor
Yeap, but OTL Amudsen didn't reveal his intention of going for the South Pole until the last moment. He got a leg up on Scott like this. Still Amundsen's firts attempt on the Pole could have ended more badly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen's_South_Pole_expedition#False_start
Amundsen catches a cold and develops pneumonia
Not likely. He was a skilled and weathered polar explorer by the time of the 1911 expedition. He already had cca 25 years of polar exploration experience and a few notable firsts (NW Passage, etc.) behind his belt when he set off for the South Pole.
Oates, not Oats. If Scott and co. make it to the pole and back OK, there won't be a need for such a sacrifice. After all, in OTL, they had eventually reached the pole and made it back by at least a half. The increasing snowstorms impeded their progress for several days, and that's where they really lost hope on ever getting back home. And they died only about 30 kms from the nearest resupply depot and shelter that they set up for the return journey. Bitter irony.
You can't prevent "the cold" by experience - it just happens - or else it would be extinct by now...
Could a crevasse open up under Amundsen? Or some other mishap that could not be predicted, something goes wrong with the dogs or the sleds? The Norwegian was very skilled, but even he could not forsee everything.
Scoot may have made some poor choices but dumb luck has helped more than one explorer, what if Scott got a major break?
Scoot may have made some poor choices but dumb luck has helped more than one explorer, what if Scott got a major break?
Simples...
Replace Robert Falcon Scott with that polar genius Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton. His 1907 Nimrod expedition was only 97 miles short of the South Pole. Had he succeeded, Shackleton Base might have been at the South Pole.
And he was born in Ireland. That might do wonders for appreciation of the Auld Sod.
Replace Robert Falcon Scott with that polar genius Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton. His 1907 Nimrod expedition was only 97 miles short of the South Pole. Had he succeeded, Shackleton Base might have been at the South Pole.
And he was born in Ireland. That might do wonders for appreciation of the Auld Sod.
Question of ethics
Here's a variation on the question (posted elsewhere but worth reviving):
Amundsen still reaches the Pole first, and his flag is found by Scott a month later, as in OTL. BUT, on the return journey Admiral Scott finds the remains of the Norwegian party, dead due to natural causes (a sudden crevasse, avalanche, etc), including enough recoverable supplies to help Scott and his men return to base. The question here is what Scott would admit to and how much.
This would also hinge on:
1. Just how badly Scott wanted to be first to the Pole.
How far would he go to maintain that claim? Would he respect his fellow explorer or actually claim first rights? Scott and his fellow Brits would know just how severe the Antarctic is, and he also knew that Amundsen would have been the only other man who'd faced this. Plus Scott realized how lucky he was to survive at all as opposed to his fellow explorer (in TTL).
2. The loyalty of Scott's men, would they ever say otherwise against a commander who sought glory but often ignored common sense. Also how much national pride would factor, England vs Norway.
3. What happened at the Pole itself. Would Scott tear down the Norwegian flag in frustration and raise the Union Jack? Sooner or later others would also reach the South Pole and discover the evidence.
Here's a variation on the question (posted elsewhere but worth reviving):
Amundsen still reaches the Pole first, and his flag is found by Scott a month later, as in OTL. BUT, on the return journey Admiral Scott finds the remains of the Norwegian party, dead due to natural causes (a sudden crevasse, avalanche, etc), including enough recoverable supplies to help Scott and his men return to base. The question here is what Scott would admit to and how much.
This would also hinge on:
1. Just how badly Scott wanted to be first to the Pole.
How far would he go to maintain that claim? Would he respect his fellow explorer or actually claim first rights? Scott and his fellow Brits would know just how severe the Antarctic is, and he also knew that Amundsen would have been the only other man who'd faced this. Plus Scott realized how lucky he was to survive at all as opposed to his fellow explorer (in TTL).
2. The loyalty of Scott's men, would they ever say otherwise against a commander who sought glory but often ignored common sense. Also how much national pride would factor, England vs Norway.
3. What happened at the Pole itself. Would Scott tear down the Norwegian flag in frustration and raise the Union Jack? Sooner or later others would also reach the South Pole and discover the evidence.
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You can't prevent "the cold" by experience - it just happens - or else it would be extinct by now...
When you are in the midst of the antarctic wastes, there are very few people to sneeze on you...
Bruce
Its very difficult. Scott really really didnt have effective plans, and Amundsen did. Really, easiest way to do it is to have scott do it the year before Amundsen tries.
As you said that would be both a jerky and risky move.
But in your scenario Scott may not have been the first human on the South Pole but he would still hold the rightful and non-negligible title of being the first man to reach the South Pole and return alive.
The temptation to do what you propose may cross his mind but if he weighs the cost-benefit for a moment he'll realize that this extra inch of glory isn't worth his conscience and most especially it's not worth the risk.
how far?
I can't resist raising the stakes still higher on the "Scott survives" question.
What if he was the only one who lived? That is, his teammates died en route but he either made it back or was reached in time by his companions back at the base? I can't resist adding severe injuries from frostbite, so that Admiral Scott would end up considered a modern Lord Nelson.
The ethics here would be interesting. Of course Scott would have the one claim that counted, the first man to reach the South Pole and return alive. On the other hand, any one, either British or Norwegian who could dispute any claim of being first would be dead, unable to refute anything the Admiral wanted to say.
Moreso, the adulation of the public would not be an easy thing to resist. The British public may have the mistaken idea that Robert Falcon Scott was first to reach the Pole, don't know how good communication would be back in 1912, esp from the Antarctic continent. Scott would have to have a strong sense of honor if he wants to make the truth clear and mention his rival.
I can't resist raising the stakes still higher on the "Scott survives" question.
What if he was the only one who lived? That is, his teammates died en route but he either made it back or was reached in time by his companions back at the base? I can't resist adding severe injuries from frostbite, so that Admiral Scott would end up considered a modern Lord Nelson.
The ethics here would be interesting. Of course Scott would have the one claim that counted, the first man to reach the South Pole and return alive. On the other hand, any one, either British or Norwegian who could dispute any claim of being first would be dead, unable to refute anything the Admiral wanted to say.
Moreso, the adulation of the public would not be an easy thing to resist. The British public may have the mistaken idea that Robert Falcon Scott was first to reach the Pole, don't know how good communication would be back in 1912, esp from the Antarctic continent. Scott would have to have a strong sense of honor if he wants to make the truth clear and mention his rival.
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An American Precedent...
Cook got to the North Pole first, Peary grabbed the records. Somehow I think Scott would have regarded it as frightfully beyond the pale, old boy, liable to get you blackballed at the Army and Navy Club...
Cook got to the North Pole first, Peary grabbed the records. Somehow I think Scott would have regarded it as frightfully beyond the pale, old boy, liable to get you blackballed at the Army and Navy Club...
When you are in the midst of the antarctic wastes, there are very few people to sneeze on you...
Bruce
Neversaid this must happen in the antarctic... Back in Norway, on the journey
Giving interviews to reporters, whatever...
Photo finish
Here's a variation: Let's give Admiral Scott a break, say the weather, or he listens to more expert advice, his equipment does not malfunction, and get him started a month earlier, about the same time as Amundsen.
The timing would be so that both men are approaching the Pole at about the same time. Possibly they would spot each other closing in.
What then? A race to the finish? A double conquest, with mutual photos?
What would they say to one another?
Here's a variation: Let's give Admiral Scott a break, say the weather, or he listens to more expert advice, his equipment does not malfunction, and get him started a month earlier, about the same time as Amundsen.
The timing would be so that both men are approaching the Pole at about the same time. Possibly they would spot each other closing in.
What then? A race to the finish? A double conquest, with mutual photos?
What would they say to one another?
Ancientone
Banned
Here's a long list of what Scott did wrong. Quite a lot will have to be changed or Scott to win the race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_Amundsen_and_Scott_Expeditions#Clothing_and_goggles
I wonder though, as a dead hero has far more capital than a live one--especially one who dies trying, would we still remember much about Scott if he had survived? No one made a film about Amundsen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_Amundsen_and_Scott_Expeditions#Clothing_and_goggles
I wonder though, as a dead hero has far more capital than a live one--especially one who dies trying, would we still remember much about Scott if he had survived? No one made a film about Amundsen.
Now that's just getting burlesque.
Either "Mr. Amundsen, I presume?" or "Get the fuck out of my way!"What would they say to one another?
Probably both.
Where's the film about Vasco da Gama, Zheng He or even Magellan? Just like Amundsen, they only got smaller productions outside the scope of the dominant Anglo-Saxonic film industry...
Ancientone
Banned
Perhaps they are not interesting enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2z2VCg5fw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1SNX8tFM6w
"Lapu Lapu" about Magallan ( no you tube clip)
The film Scott of the Antarctic was not exactly a major production--it had John Mills in it, but it was one of those awful British 1950s pot-boilers.