Warsaw Pact invasion routes?

[Top hats daily]

Hi all, I was curious of what a Warsaw Pact invasion route would be in this situation


1983-

Both sides had a ramping up of forces because of international tension

Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Finland are neutral at start of war (can change during war)

Italian Corps stay mostly within Italy proper

France stays in NATO

All NATO are at war

Other theaters

Asia is at peace

Middle East at peace

What directions does the WP take against NATO?

[AriaT]

Northern Norway, Fulda Gap, perhaps Yougoslavia. There are many avenues of Warsaw Pact expansion.

[EternalCynic]

There were files opened by the Polish government stating the most prominent standing plan involved the Warsaw Pact nuking military targets in West Germany. The Czechoslovak army would march across the nuclear wasteland to reach the Rhine in seven days, also taking Munich, Stuttgart, and Frankfurt. It's also assumed NATO would retaliate by wiping out all of Poland's cities. Benelux and Denmark also glow green at night.

The Soviets would avoid nuking France or Britain directly, knowing that would cross a red line.

[Enigmajones]

Something like this.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Something like this.

Except that's a NATO invasion route.

[EternalCynic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_D...he_River_Rhine

[Incognito]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Something like this.

Why does NATO nuke Poland but not East Germany?

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by Incognito

Why does NATO nuke Poland but not East Germany?

At a guess they would do that to cut Soviet lines back to Russia and then occupy Eastern Germany.

[Incognito]

Originally Posted by EternalCynic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_D...he_River_Rhine

So the Polish government released this to show how bad the Communist regimes were... yet it assumes that its NATO that carries out 1st strike on Polish cities.

Also, just curious, assuming that something like this were to happen and there is some kind of peace agreement between NATO & Warsaw Pact after communist forces take West Germany, were there any plans for what to do with Poland? What were the Polish government's own plans for surviving a NATO attack on Poland's urban areas?

[ObssesedNuker]

The main axis of attack for an early-80's Soviet offensive will likely come across the North German Plain, with attacks through Fulda Gap and Scandinavian as supporting moves. Not only is the plain much more favorable tank terrain, but a successfull advance across it would isolate NATO forces further south (like in the Fulda Gap) from the channel ports, pinning them against the Alps and effectively pocketing them.

Given how bad NATO defensive dispositions were at this time, a successful Soviet breakthrough and exploitation is extremely likely.

The "Six Days to the Rhine" plan the Polish Government released strikes me as more in line with an early-60's Soviet war plan then an early-80's one.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by EternalCynic

the most prominent standing plan involved the Warsaw Pact nuking military targets in West Germany. The Czechoslovak army would march across the nuclear wasteland to reach the Rhine in seven days, also taking Munich, Stuttgart, and Frankfurt. It's also assumed NATO would retaliate by wiping out all of Poland's cities. Benelux and Denmark also glow green at night.

The Soviets would avoid nuking France or Britain directly, knowing that would cross a red line.

Strategic planning, straight from the violent ward of the insane asylum.

[ObssesedNuker]

:sigh:

Soviet nuclear policy in the early-80s was firmly in the "No First-Use" territory*. By then they had realized that a nuclear war is unwinnable and it would be more favorable for the Russians, given their initial superiority in conventional ground and air forces, to stay away from the nukes for as long as possible. Although the same can not be said for their views on chemical weapons.

As I already stated, the plan published by the Polish Government is more in line with Soviet military thought during the early-mid 1960's when their military did think a nuclear war was survivable.

The Soviets never accepted the idea that a nuclear war could be limited.

*With the caveat that they did not consider a pre-emptive nuclear strike to be "first-use".

[Thoresby]

I always thought that 3rd Shock Army's attack across the North German Plain towards Hamburg would be the main schwehrpunkt. It's great Tank Country and the it was the most offensive orientated Soviet Army in Germany with two Tank Divisions and it had 20th and 2nd Tank Armies backing it up. Southern Germany and the Fulda Gap was always going to be a sideshow.

[kspence92]

Did the Soviets ever have plans for an invasion of Sweden and/or Finland to give them another route of attack into Norway ?

[LostCosmonaut]

Originally Posted by kspence92

Did the Soviets ever have plans for an invasion of Sweden and/or Finland to give them another route of attack into Norway ?

The Finns could possibly be strongarmed into giving the soviets military access, but I doubt they would invade Sweden, which had a significant and advanced military force of its own.

[mattep74]

Originally Posted by kspence92

Did the Soviets ever have plans for an invasion of Sweden and/or Finland to give them another route of attack into Norway ?

I think so, there have been multiple reports in Swedish newspapers about such plans.

Why do you think our airports have longer runways than commercial planes or Swedish fighters needed when the airports were constructed? To allow B52s to land.

[mats]

Would invading scandinavia really be such a good idea though? IIRC Swedish and Norwegian forces are of top-notch quality, and the terrain extremely easy to defend.

[mowque]

They all end in nuclear fire.

[ObssesedNuker]

Originally Posted by kspence92

Did the Soviets ever have plans for an invasion of Sweden and/or Finland to give them another route of attack into Norway ?

As noted: with Sweden, yes. With Finland, the common assumption is that they would permit the Soviets military access.

Originally Posted by mats

Would invading scandinavia really be such a good idea though? IIRC Swedish and Norwegian forces are of top-notch quality, and the terrain extremely easy to defend.

In a words: yes. Seizing Norwegian territory gives the Soviet navy and land-based anti-ship aircraft an easier time to get at NATO convoys in the North Sea and the Atlantic, in addition it helps secure the northern flank of the Soviet forces in Germany. Invading Sweden would be a means of conditioning greater success in Norway, although the Soviets would prefer to keep the Swedes neutral... no sense in needlessely adding another enemy to fight.

But as I said, it would be secondary to the fighting in Germany. That is where the conventional part of a Cold War WWIII will be either won or lost.

Originally Posted by mowque

They all end in nuclear fire.

Ultimately and in all likelyhood, yes.

[amphibulous]

Originally Posted by mats

Would invading scandinavia really be such a good idea though? IIRC Swedish and Norwegian forces are of top-notch quality, and the terrain extremely easy to defend.

But the quantity of forces were, by Soviet standards, tiny. So really not a problem.