A surviving house Hohenstaufen

Herzen's love-child

Can anyone suggest what a plausible POD would be for the Hohenstaufens to survive their extinction OTL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenstaufen

Points for a continuing state ruled by them in Southern Italy surviving at least into the 15th Century. Double points for control of the Peninsula. Triple if they continue as HRE.

Secondary question: What if Frederick II Hohenstaufen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor) had lived another 15-20 years? OTL he died at the age of almost 54 in the midst of the ongoing struggle with the Pope and fighting for supremacy of the Peninsula.
 

Janprimus

Interesting personally I'd wondered a WI the Hohenstaufen would survive in Swabia instead (and indirectly the HRE), which already affects the fortunes of the Habsburgs and the Luxembourgs.

Furthermore regarding the kingdom of Sicily should it be the legitimate branch (last member Conradin (actually Conrad)) or the illegitimate branch of Manfred?

Both branches could survive though, for instance if Manfred is initially more successful in Southern Italy. Sure Conradin might eventually (by then he'll be known as Conrad) claim his birthright, but after he secures his duchy, his election in the HRE and his dynasty.
 

Herzen's love-child

Manfred's defeat at the hands of Charles of Anjou was not a foregone conclusion. Neither was Conradin's defeat by same. The battles of Benevento and Tagliacozzo could have gone either way.
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
No one else want to take a stab at this with their longswords? :)
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I think your post above points at a good chance - if the Hohenstaufen (either Conrad or Manfred) aren't defeated by Charles of Anjou, they might well hold on there.

As for Frederick living another 15-20 years (which puts him as 71-76 - old but not impossible, after all Rudolph I died at 73), hard to say.

Frederick's chances are weakening at this point, but it's not beyond all hope.
 

Herzen's love-child

Elfwine said:
I think your post above points at a good chance - if the Hohenstaufen (either Conrad or Manfred) aren't defeated by Charles of Anjou, they might well hold on there.

As for Frederick living another 15-20 years (which puts him as 71-76 - old but not impossible, after all Rudolph I died at 73), hard to say.

Frederick's chances are weakening at this point, but it's not beyond all hope.
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Was hoping to see you on this thread. :) I've heard mixed things about the state of affairs at the time of F2's death: on one hand, his son, Conrad was strengthening the Hohenstaufen position in Germany and his allies were regaining ground in N. Italy. On the other hand, the Pope was organizing an effective coalition against Freddie. Other enemies were waiting in the wings.
I have been toying with writing a TL involving the Hohenstaufen. Trying to create the right POD.

I am surprised, that with such a fascinating character (Frederick), that more people haven't tackled him on this site.
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
Was hoping to see you on this thread. :) I've heard mixed things about the state of affairs at the time of F2's death: on one hand, his son, Conrad was strengthening the Hohenstaufen position in Germany and his allies were regaining ground in N. Italy. On the other hand, the Pope was organizing an effective coalition against Freddie. Other enemies were waiting in the wings.
I have been toying with writing a TL involving the Hohenstaufen. Trying to create the right POD.

I am surprised, that with such a fascinating character (Frederick), that more people haven't tackled him on this site.
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I'm flattered.

On the situation:

It seems like a toss up - Frederick and his allies are working energetically, but their foes are as well.

And I believe Frederick is monetarily not as well off as he used to be - lost a considerable amount of treasure at some battle in the '40s. But that doesn't mean he's out of luck.

Pity that Conrad (OTL - this may be easily avertible TTL) died only foru years after his father, if he lives as long as dad does (as in, another 15-20) that will help a lot - and Conradrin seems to be a promising lad judging by OTL.

Meanwhile, Manfred knew what he was doing. So that's two sons for Freddie to lean on as he gets old, plus any others who OTL didn't amount to much (he had several other bastards and younger children, names escape me at the moment).

Agreed on the Stupor Mundi. You'd think he'd be a perfect guy for timelines, and for all that the Staufen get mentioned in "how can the HRE centralize?", actually writing about them isn't that common in my reading.

The only two I can think of are Faeelin's Prince of Peace (which gets a bit unrealistic - fun read though) and Midgard's Unholy Roman Empire (which is worth a read, although it leads to the Staufen failing in the end).


My inclination is that if Frederick lives longer, you can probably ensure the Staufen survive somewhere, but 1250 is too late for him, at least, to make the HRE work - and given all he's promised to the princes, his successors aren't in a pretty spot.

But it's not a lost cause.
 

Herzen's love-child

I think that Frederick had essentially lost the HRE by the '40s through his surrendering various prerogatives to the German nobility and towns for support and resources for his Italian wars. Personally, I'm interested more in what could develop further in Italy and the vicinity. Manfred and his father had some pretty interesting dealings with the Latin Empire and the Despotate of Epirus which might be some fertile ground to develop.
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
I think that Frederick had essentially lost the HRE by the '40s through his surrendering various prerogatives to the German nobility and towns for support and resources for his Italian wars. Personally, I'm interested more in what could develop further in Italy and the vicinity. Manfred and his father had some pretty interesting dealings with the Latin Empire and the Despotate of Epirus which might be some fertile ground to develop.
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Not familiar with the details there myself, but it sounds worth exploring.

A Hohenstaufen Empire in Southern Italy pushing north and east, possibly holding on to the imperial office in name - like an Italocentric version of the OTL Habsburg Empire? In the sense that the lands of the Hohenstaufens are great enough to make them a power in their own right even if the HRE isn't.

That would be interesting indeed.
 

Herzen's love-child

Elfwine said:
A Hohenstaufen Empire in Southern Italy pushing north and east, possibly holding on to the imperial office in name - like an Italocentric version of the OTL Habsburg Empire? In the sense that the lands of the Hohenstaufens are great enough to make them a power in their own right even if the HRE isn't.

That would be interesting indeed.
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Exactly! Anyway, more realistic to expend and develop resources in the richer, more cultured, and urban South than a Germany that the Hohenstaufen had really lost an affinity for. Though they loved to import German knights!
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
Where are the resident medievalists of this board? This is custom made for your thoughts and input!:)
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Seriously.

I've put in my two bits, but medieval Italy is something I only know so far as it overlaps with my study of the Byzantines - I haven't really found (easily accessible) much to work with on the HRE, and what I have covers most of the rest.

Hardly enough to address the possibility of Staufen Italy properly.
 

Herzen's love-child

Elfwine said:
Seriously.

I've put in my two bits, but medieval Italy is something I only know so far as it overlaps with my study of the Byzantines - I haven't really found (easily accessible) much to work with on the HRE, and what I have covers most of the rest.

Hardly enough to address the possibility of Staufen Italy properly.
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And I value your input, Elfwine! Thank you. :)
Trying to smoke out some of the Italian and S. European members who seem to remark from time to time on this general period. Hell, from Mitteleuropa, too.
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
And I value your input, Elfwine! Thank you. :)
Trying to smoke out some of the Italian and S. European members who seem to remark from time to time on this general period. Hell, from Mitteleuropa, too.
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No problem.


One thing I'd throw in - at least the younger of Henry's sons (Frederick's eldest son) is still around, though I'm not sure how old he is (all I know is that he died "young" in 1253 or so). So what you do with that Frederick might be worth a passing mention.

Since Henry (VII) died in 1242, his age could be anywhere up to his early twenties.
 

Herzen's love-child

Elfwine said:
No problem.


One thing I'd throw in - at least the younger of Henry (Frederick's eldest son) is still around, though I'm not sure how old he is (all I know is that he died "young" in 1253 or so). So what you do with that Frederick might be worth a passing mention.
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Indeed. Federico sired a numerous brood.
 

Elfwine

Herzen's love-child said:
Indeed. Federico sired a numerous brood.
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Would be interesting if he has yet another marriage - he's been a widower (for the third time) since 1241.

Not suggesting you need to do it, but I can't imagine CRF (the initials of his full list of first names - Constantine Roger Frederick) giving up for good until they bury him.
 
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