AH: A World without Islam Discussion

Besides that Aegyptos has Risen ATL (which is currently in hibernation), I can't seem to find many 7th century TLs concerning the growth of Islam. So what if Islam was never created? What if Muhammad was unable to ever make Islam prominent by either being killed early in life or by being sold into slavery and becoming a Christian monk?

or

What if in 602, Maurice, even though bankrupt, did not decree that the army should stay for winter beyond the Danube
after a successful Avar campaign, preventing a mutiny that would get Maurice and his family killed by Phocas, preventing Shah Khosrau II from declaring that long, inconclusive war against Phocas for murdering his patron that would cause the rise of Islam? Also, you could possibly get an independent Egypt that way, since Maurice wanted to divide his empire upon death between his six sons.

What do you guys think?
 
If there was no Islam we might not have search functions. ;):mad::D

Even balky ones (Did the server change lately impact that?).

Not to mention that "Mohammad fails to convince the Arabs to follow Islam." is very different than "the last Persian-Roman war doesn't occur".

The latter might be likely even if Maurice isn't overthrown - Khosrau seeing Maurice's natural death (he was sixty-three when he died OTL, he's not going to last that much longer) as meaning any agreements are off, say.
 
No Caliphate means no algebra or fancy fabrics for the filthy European barbarians.

Then when the European localities get around to massacring their local Jewish populations and/or chasing them out, there's no decent place to go to and flourish.

Fancy woven carpets? Nope. The rich have animal skin rugs, sure.

Wonderful words like "sofa" and "shampoo" will never caress our lips.

Speaking for people of more or less European-ish identity: We're all just a bunch of ass-scratching glorified cavemen, living to about four decades max on average, picking at our myriad sores.

At least the Western Hemisphere is left the f--- alone, for better and worse.


Edit: Good news! China doesn't know what "Opium War" means, and India, well, without the Raj, they'll have they would have without the British pushing in and hogging all the tea.

And Africa actually has a chance to be an intact continent with actual living civilizations and cultures, and probably a damn sight better than filthy Europe.

So there.
 
Then again, without Islam and the Caliphate and its heirs to stimulate to and fro between Europe and other lands, perhaps no Bubonic Plague for Europe?
 
No Caliphate means no algebra or fancy fabrics for the filthy European barbarians.

Then when the European localities get around to massacring their local Jewish populations and/or chasing them out, there's no decent place to go to and flourish.

Fancy woven carpets? Nope. The rich have animal skin rugs, sure.

Wonderful words like "sofa" and "shampoo" will never caress our lips.

Speaking for people of more or less European-ish identity: We're all just a bunch of ass-scratching glorified cavemen, living to about four decades max on average, picking at our myriad sores.

Speaking as someone who remembers that the Byzantine Empire exists, I wonder how its influence on the West would look here.
 
Edit: Good news! China doesn't know what "Opium War" means, and India, well, without the Raj, they'll have they would have without the British pushing in and hogging all the tea.

And Africa actually has a chance to be an intact continent with actual living civilizations and cultures, and probably a damn sight better than filthy Europe.

So there.

Rome will also be sticking around, also Zoroastrianism may be able to reform itself and we could even see a healthy Nestorian church.
 
The modern spanish language never develops :(
Though we might speak some sort of greek derivate instead. I'd expect the modern world to be made up of mostly byzantine sucessors.
 
A frequently ignored option - maybe Buddhism go west? There was buddhists in modern Central Asia, Afghanistan, so... maybe it goes further, into iranian and related people's lands, maybe Russia...
 
So you think it wouldn't just crumble in on itself without the Islamic surge to devour it? Just wondering. :D

I see no reason to believe it would necessarily fall earlier than it did OTL, because it managed to survive considerable pressure in circumstances where Islam did exist. Can't see why it would fare worse with less of that.
 
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No Caliphate means no algebra or fancy fabrics for the filthy European barbarians.

Then when the European localities get around to massacring their local Jewish populations and/or chasing them out, there's no decent place to go to and flourish.

Fancy woven carpets? Nope. The rich have animal skin rugs, sure.

Wonderful words like "sofa" and "shampoo" will never caress our lips.

Speaking for people of more or less European-ish identity: We're all just a bunch of ass-scratching glorified cavemen, living to about four decades max on average, picking at our myriad sores.

At least the Western Hemisphere is left the f--- alone, for better and worse.


Edit: Good news! China doesn't know what "Opium War" means, and India, well, without the Raj, they'll have they would have without the British pushing in and hogging all the tea.

And Africa actually has a chance to be an intact continent with actual living civilizations and cultures, and probably a damn sight better than filthy Europe.

So there.
wrong the indians had this;) they giot zero, logarithims and mathematicians arabs adopted indian methods in math
 
wrong the indians had this;) they giot zero, logarithims and mathematicians arabs adopted indian methods in math

The muslim powers had an hand in spreading such ideas though, as you pointed.. diffusion of ideas, cultures, etc...

Many things are changed without Islam, like crops in europe. The muslim powers brought things like oranges to Spain and Sicilia, by example, and irrigation skills.

Unexpected far reaching changes in such a world...
 
The muslim powers had an hand in spreading such ideas though, as you pointed.. diffusion of ideas, cultures, etc...

Many things are changed without Islam, like crops in europe. The muslim powers brought things like oranges to Spain and Sicilia, by example, and irrigation skills.

Unexpected far reaching changes in such a world...
I agree with you. SImply put without islamic traders ideas and goods would have had tougher time to defuse in west.
 
In the absence of Islam, the history of all Islamic countries and countries where Islam is a considerable minority are going to undergo tremendous alterations.The Middle East,Central Asia, South Asia, South East Asia, North Africa, all will have much altered histories. The South Asia will continue to be Hindu and Sikhism will have no reason to emerge.The South East Asia will be Buddhist dominated including OTL Indonesia and Malaysia. Zoroastrianism may continue to dominate Iran and may even spread further. Christianity or Zoroastrianism may spread in the Middle East. Buddhism may spread in Central Asia. There will be corresponding cultural and political changes in all these places.
 
A few thoughts

- What we think of as "Byzantium" may never emerge, or, if it does, it'll be in a considerably altered form. Without the tremendous religious and political power of Muhammad and his early successors to launch the Arabs across the Mediterranean, the Late Roman state will continue onwards for the foreseeable future. I would think that more attempts would be made to enforce the Monothelite doctrine, possibly at the expense of Italy. Heraclius, of course, is a triumphant hero, the greatest Emperor since Constantine, rather than OTL's rather sad and pathetic character.

- Traditional Iranian culture is probably already on the decline. In the absence of Islam, the House of Sasan may or may not be able to consolidate power from the terrible 630s. If it does, I think within a generation or two Nestorianism will be adopted by the dynasty. This may very lead to Eranshahr fracturing between the Christians of Mesopotamia, and the determined old Zoroastrians of Parthia and Media.

- The Jews will hang on, no matter what predictions of doom and gloom are made for them, though in a world with a Christian Iran as well as Rome, it's going to be difficult. They'll endure sporadic persecution, but largely be left alone, as happened in the fifth and sixth centuries OTL. I can't really see any major reason for this to change. Sooner or later, they may get a Khazar-style lucky break, and convert a ruler somewhere or other- perhaps the Turks could be a candidate for this.

- The Arabs themselves will continue to Christianise, as they had been doing in the sixth century, though they'll adopt plenty of elements of their old faith, such as Ka'abas. Odd Christian sects will probably emerge amongst the Arabs, and conversion by some to Judaism is not impossible. Demographic exhaustion in Rome and Iran will allow the Arabs to take advantage and raid Syria-Palestine and Mesopotamia, but it's unlikely they'll be able to hold onto all of this.

- With the Empire having even less desire than IOTL for conciliation, the Roman Papacy will find itself between a rock and a hard place, defended against Arian Lombards by an heretical Heraclian dynasty that's most unlikely to tolerate open religious dissent. Exarchs of Ravenna are likely to be reliable Easterners, and will make sure the Papacy doesn't step too far out of line. There may well be revolts in Africa and Italy, either seeking to overthrow the Heraclian line or (less likely) to re-establish an "Orthodox" Western Empire.

- The Visigoths will continue in Spain for the foreseeable future and may, if they are capable, start intervening in Africa and Italy for the cause of "Orthodoxy"- the same goes for the Franks. This could potentially be interesting for the Roman Empire to deal with.

- Then, there are wild cards. The Avars could recover their strength, one of the Caucasian kingdoms could get an unexpected Arab-style rise, a people could convert to Judaism somewhere that OTL would find bizarre.

The end of antiquity really is such a great time, isn't it? :D
 
No Caliphate means no algebra or fancy fabrics for the filthy European barbarians.

Then when the European localities get around to massacring their local Jewish populations and/or chasing them out, there's no decent place to go to and flourish.

Fancy woven carpets? Nope. The rich have animal skin rugs, sure.

Wonderful words like "sofa" and "shampoo" will never caress our lips.

Speaking for people of more or less European-ish identity: We're all just a bunch of ass-scratching glorified cavemen, living to about four decades max on average, picking at our myriad sores.

At least the Western Hemisphere is left the f--- alone, for better and worse.


Edit: Good news! China doesn't know what "Opium War" means, and India, well, without the Raj, they'll have they would have without the British pushing in and hogging all the tea.

And Africa actually has a chance to be an intact continent with actual living civilizations and cultures, and probably a damn sight better than filthy Europe.

So there.

Continuous trade between continents and cultures will occur regardless of what religion dominates in between.

Silk, for one, made its way to Europe for centuries before the emergence of Islam. Why not Persian rugs?

And even if western Europe somehow remains a backwater for centuries, why wouldn't other civilizations in East Asia, the Middle East or the Mediterranean not eventually finds reasons to explore the globe and colonize different areas of the planet? Your conclusions are without merit.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Continuous trade between continents and cultures will occur regardless of what religion dominates in between.

That's true, but in OTl the territory between Spain and Central Asia was part of a continuous cultural sphere which won't be replicated here. Contrast the relative ease with which new crops and industrial methods spread under the Islamic World with the period preceding it, where the Byzantines had to launch a secret mission to learn how to make silk.
 
Continuous trade between continents and cultures will occur regardless of what religion dominates in between.

Silk, for one, made its way to Europe for centuries before the emergence of Islam. Why not Persian rugs?

Were "Persian rugs" as we know them a medieval invention, or were their precursors already produced in Sassanid Persia?
 
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