Esopo
Banned
The use of such words and concepts refered to anY other civilization than europe wouldnt be' tolerated here.
AH: A World without Islam Discussion
- Thread starter Grouchio
- Start date
The use of such words and concepts refered to anY other civilization than europe wouldnt be' tolerated here.
An other way to look at this
in order to see Islam not created, how about a world without Christianity. The Christians "existence" likely influenced and spread (as did the Judaism) monotheism. It was monotheism that Mohamed adopted and, given his interpretation, developed the Koran from. So a world without Christianity or Islam would likely mean the rise of some other form of god-belief on a mass sale.
in order to see Islam not created, how about a world without Christianity. The Christians "existence" likely influenced and spread (as did the Judaism) monotheism. It was monotheism that Mohamed adopted and, given his interpretation, developed the Koran from. So a world without Christianity or Islam would likely mean the rise of some other form of god-belief on a mass sale.
I am arguing with the idea that it took a particular religion being widespread for economies, technologies and whatnot to exist. Islam gets the credit for what people would have done anyhow. A cultural sphere established and initially governed by the Arabs, Persians or Byzantine Greeks (geographically contiguous societies anyway) would have been necessary to bring about a certain depth of international trade. The Caliphate ruling from Spain to to central Asia when it did, as long as it did, was merely in a position to take the credit, as any other empire or universal ideology would have.
But to imply or state outright that we would never have reached this level of civilization without their existence or intervention is completely ludicrous.
Not to mention that the reason for the secret mission had less to do with the lack of such a hegemony and more to do with China keeping it (silk) secret.
Byzantium+Persia =/= knowledge of how to make silk obvious.
One question on the issue of Byzantium as we know it not emerging: Does Greek still become the official language?
Byzantium+Persia =/= knowledge of how to make silk obvious.
One question on the issue of Byzantium as we know it not emerging: Does Greek still become the official language?
Additional Islamic PODs available here:
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/pods/islam_is_altered_or_absent
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/pods/islam_is_altered_or_absent
Yes, I think that much is inevitable. The whole weight of the Church will still be tilted towards the Syrian/Egyptian axis, and, despite the attempts of some to identify separatist tendencies in these provinces, the Church worked in Greek here. This, when combined with the locale of Constantinople, means I think a Greek-speaking Roman Empire is still likely to come about.
Really without Islam the biggest winners are the Orthodox Christians. Without the ERE being gobbled up the eastern and western Churches are roughly equal in numbers of members, at least assuming the schisms in the east are mended. Plus, the Eastern Roman Empire remains easily the most powerful polity in the Meditteranean, and might even be able to force the Goths, Franks, and Lombards to recognize them as Roman Emperors and overlords, with a kind of tributary state system for France and Spain eventually coming about. It probably wouldn't last, but the ERE at the time was a relatively vibrant and powerful state with dreams of recovering the West in full, so anything is possible.
Also, we could see serious changes in India, like Hinduism making powerful empires to contend with or even eclipse Persia. An Indian Empire spanning most of southern Asia would be awsome.
Also, we could see serious changes in India, like Hinduism making powerful empires to contend with or even eclipse Persia. An Indian Empire spanning most of southern Asia would be awsome.
Silk is still going to spread, and for all the hype about it being a state secret, it wasn't that secretive. Knowledge of sericulture had already spread to Japan by about 300 CE, and it's more likely that Justinian's monks went or came from somewhere in Central Asia, perhaps Sogdiana or or Khotan, though maybe not Persia, and not China itself, indicating that knowledge of how to make silk was already spreading before then.
Course that is in my opinion really unlikely. Persia had a china like ability to conquer its conquerors.
The PoD would have potentially massive ramifications on the development of India and China.
Assuming it means a less developed Western Europe and a, temporarily, undiscovered Western hemisphere (likely through a lack of diffusion of ideas, and little incentive for Byzantium to launch any westward exploration and such, straddling as they are on the eastern trade routes anyways), we see a later or gradual Colombian exchange. This has the potential to be absolutely devastating, as both may end up developing even more potent diseases (at least for the New World: OTL Colombian exchange was already ridiculously lethal, while New to Old world transmissions of Syphilis was kinda meh comparatively).
We see far less gold and silver bullion in the world economy (without the Spanish conquests of Peru and Mexico), which has enormous ramifications for China specifically (considering New World silver went a long way to sating the 1500-1800 Chinese demand of bullion; the price of silver was heavily, heavily inflated for the early part of the period in China compared to the rest of the world). The expansion of the Chinese economy is slowed accordingly (while Chinese traders remain the dominant force in the East Asia/Indian Ocean basin; Japan remains the main Chinese exporter of silver); though it does perhaps lead to a reintroduction of fiat/paper currency. The Ming dynasty's end is also butterflied, as historically the famines and other miscellaneous factors was compounded specifically upon the contraction of the world silver trade and the Ming dynasty's tremendous dependence upon it (the contraction of the former lead to a dramatic decrease in state revenue and contributed to a national economic crisis, right as the Ming were finishing some of their most expensive projects). Even assuming the latter's fall and the subsequent destruction of much of China's progress towards a more "liberal" society (this is the time period of latter Chinese history where literature like the Jing Ping Mei was published; the fall of the Ming and the ascent of the Qing saw a strong conservative retrenchment among the intelligentsia and the central government [the former in response to the collapse of the Ming, and the perception that the drift from tradition was the case, and the latter to enforce the idea that they were legitimate Confucian rulers, though the government was necessarily more pragmatic, especially in it's dealings with the outer world]) does not occur, the lack of a Colombian exchange further entails that New World crops like the potato are not introduced to China, which means that the massive population boom that occurred during the Qing does not occur (which is also significant in the boom's effect upon the Chinese economy [in a word, strained it, despite the booming imports of silver and the reconstruction of the complex economic network and cottage industries that existed during the Ming]).
For India, there is no systemic deindustrialization launched forth by the British.
And the Western/Central Europeans remain backwater, uncivilized barbarians that may eventually be pacified and brought to see the light of civilization by more enlightened empires.
EVERYONE WINS!
...until a Colombian exchange happens, that is. Then everyone probably dies (maybe, probably not).
Assuming it means a less developed Western Europe and a, temporarily, undiscovered Western hemisphere (likely through a lack of diffusion of ideas, and little incentive for Byzantium to launch any westward exploration and such, straddling as they are on the eastern trade routes anyways), we see a later or gradual Colombian exchange. This has the potential to be absolutely devastating, as both may end up developing even more potent diseases (at least for the New World: OTL Colombian exchange was already ridiculously lethal, while New to Old world transmissions of Syphilis was kinda meh comparatively).
We see far less gold and silver bullion in the world economy (without the Spanish conquests of Peru and Mexico), which has enormous ramifications for China specifically (considering New World silver went a long way to sating the 1500-1800 Chinese demand of bullion; the price of silver was heavily, heavily inflated for the early part of the period in China compared to the rest of the world). The expansion of the Chinese economy is slowed accordingly (while Chinese traders remain the dominant force in the East Asia/Indian Ocean basin; Japan remains the main Chinese exporter of silver); though it does perhaps lead to a reintroduction of fiat/paper currency. The Ming dynasty's end is also butterflied, as historically the famines and other miscellaneous factors was compounded specifically upon the contraction of the world silver trade and the Ming dynasty's tremendous dependence upon it (the contraction of the former lead to a dramatic decrease in state revenue and contributed to a national economic crisis, right as the Ming were finishing some of their most expensive projects). Even assuming the latter's fall and the subsequent destruction of much of China's progress towards a more "liberal" society (this is the time period of latter Chinese history where literature like the Jing Ping Mei was published; the fall of the Ming and the ascent of the Qing saw a strong conservative retrenchment among the intelligentsia and the central government [the former in response to the collapse of the Ming, and the perception that the drift from tradition was the case, and the latter to enforce the idea that they were legitimate Confucian rulers, though the government was necessarily more pragmatic, especially in it's dealings with the outer world]) does not occur, the lack of a Colombian exchange further entails that New World crops like the potato are not introduced to China, which means that the massive population boom that occurred during the Qing does not occur (which is also significant in the boom's effect upon the Chinese economy [in a word, strained it, despite the booming imports of silver and the reconstruction of the complex economic network and cottage industries that existed during the Ming]).
For India, there is no systemic deindustrialization launched forth by the British.
And the Western/Central Europeans remain backwater, uncivilized barbarians that may eventually be pacified and brought to see the light of civilization by more enlightened empires.
EVERYONE WINS!
...until a Colombian exchange happens, that is. Then everyone probably dies (maybe, probably not).
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Its rather overinflated in my opinion. At worst carried on as a banner of cultural superiority by some.
So explain why Persia has done more to influence its conquerors than vice-versa?
Or the Turks? Whos rule over Persia more often than not persianized the Turks? And the Arabs became very persian after the conquest. They kept their language but Persian culture was a huge influence after the Arab conquests