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Old May 31st, 2012, 05:49 PM
Paul V McNutt Paul V McNutt is offline
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What if Oswald did not ask for a sweater?

The delay caused by the five minutes process of getting Lee Harvey Oswald a sweater allowed Jack Ruby time to arrive. If Ruby misses Oswald then I assume he survives to face the two murder charges ( President Kennedy and Officer Tibbet) I just reread Gerald Posner's Case Closed, which describes the facts of the Kennedy assassination. The evidence against Oswald was well beyond a reasonable doubt. The rifle found on the six floor of the School Book Depository with his fingerprints on it. The witnesses that said the shot came from the sixth floor of the Depository. The two witnesses that saw Oswald shoot from the sixth floor. The five witnesses that saw him kill officer Tibbet. The fact that he left work. The witnesses that saw him hide from the police in a shoe store lobby.The two witnesses that saw him run into a movie theater without buying a ticket. So would he get a plea bargain? Could a judge give him a plea bargain without angering voters who want Oswald strung up? If he avoided the death penalty, how long does he last in prison in the isolation of protective custody? Would he at age 73 by still alive in prison or in some prison mental ward?
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Old May 31st, 2012, 06:13 PM
Lalli Lalli is offline
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Very probably he get death penalty. Another choice is for life without possible being free.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 06:19 PM
pbaustin2 pbaustin2 is offline
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One of the women that tried to shoot Ford was only released from prison after Ford had died so you might not see Oswald released until after Jackie's death?
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Old May 31st, 2012, 06:30 PM
NickCT NickCT is offline
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One of the women that tried to shoot Ford was only released from prison after Ford had died so you might not see Oswald released until after Jackie's death?
killing is different than attempted murder..
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:00 PM
Wolfpaw Wolfpaw is offline
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There's a brief show trial, Oswald says he's a patsy, and then he pays a visit to Old Sparky lickety split.

He is a Communist who just killed the President in Texas. Of all the states in the Union, that's probably the worst one to be 1) a Communist and 2) get caught killing somebody in.

As for Jack Ruby, he doesn't get all of that fan mail he got IOTL and likely still kicks it in '67.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:08 PM
LegionoftheUnitedStates LegionoftheUnitedStates is online now
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Originally Posted by Paul V McNutt View Post
The delay caused by the five minutes process of getting Lee Harvey Oswald a sweater allowed Jack Ruby time to arrive. If Ruby misses Oswald then I assume he survives to face the two murder charges ( President Kennedy and Officer Tibbet) I just reread Gerald Posner's Case Closed, which describes the facts of the Kennedy assassination. The evidence against Oswald was well beyond a reasonable doubt. The rifle found on the six floor of the School Book Depository with his fingerprints on it. The witnesses that said the shot came from the sixth floor of the Depository. The two witnesses that saw Oswald shoot from the sixth floor. The five witnesses that saw him kill officer Tibbet. The fact that he left work. The witnesses that saw him hide from the police in a shoe store lobby.The two witnesses that saw him run into a movie theater without buying a ticket. So would he get a plea bargain? Could a judge give him a plea bargain without angering voters who want Oswald strung up? If he avoided the death penalty, how long does he last in prison in the isolation of protective custody? Would he at age 73 by still alive in prison or in some prison mental ward?
I thought the delay was about an hour to get the sweater, but I could be wrong. Of course Jack Ruby could show up at another perp walk at some time, it depends on how determined he is.

There will be no plea bargain. They have Oswald dead to rights. You don't plea bargain with a presidential assassin.

What charges was Oswald facing? I would assume at least two state murder charges (one premeditated muder or whatever they call it in Texas, and one murder of a peace officer), one attempted murder charge, at least, and possible other charges at the state level.

I'm pretty sure that he faced federal charges too. So the question is who would get the first crack at him? One or more of these charges are capital offences and any appeal is going to be on a faster track than usual.

My gut tells me he will die in prison, and most likely in an electric chair.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:34 PM
Paul V McNutt Paul V McNutt is offline
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I don't think he would face federal charges. t The making it a Federal crime to attack the president was not passed until IIRC 1965. He would face two counts of murder. I don't know what charged he face for shooting Governor Conally. I don't think prosecutors could prove he trying to kill the governor.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:06 PM
Apollo 20 Apollo 20 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul V McNutt View Post
I don't think he would face federal charges. t The making it a Federal crime to attack the president was not passed until IIRC 1965. He would face two counts of murder. I don't know what charged he face for shooting Governor Conally. I don't think prosecutors could prove he trying to kill the governor.
Correct. At the time of the assassination, this was solely a Texas crime. At a minimum, he'd face two counts of murder (JFK and Tippit) and one count of attempted murder (Connolly). I have no idea whether killing a peace officer without premeditation was a capital crime in Texas in 1963, but the assassination of the President was premeditated and would have therefore been a capital case; Tippit's killing might have been, but I can't say for sure and I have no desire to peruse the Texas murder statutes from 1963. Bear in mind as well that the investigation of the Warren Commission also found that Oswald took a shot at General Walker earlier in the year, so add in another potential count of attempted murder.

Oswald would have almost certainly been convicted and sentenced to death. Whether that sentence would have been carried out is another matter. Probably, but if there were sufficient delays before trial and appeals, he might, possibly but not all that likely, have been able to stretch things out until the Supreme Court tossed all standing death sentences in the 1972 Furman v. Georgia case. This is a longshot, but one can easily see Oswald's trial not getting underway until 1965 after a thorough Warren-style investigation. With a good lawyer, an Oswald trial could take a good long time to complete. Finding an unbiased jury pool, for one thing, could be very very difficult. And you've got issues with trying the case in Dallas, pretrial publicity, etc. Many of these things could trip up a trial judge and result in a possibly successful appeal and retrial. As I said, all of this is something of a longshot, but not completely inconceivable.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:41 PM
Paul V McNutt Paul V McNutt is offline
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I agree with Apollo. What with pretrail publicity there are grounds for an appeal. I also could see conspiracy theorists supporting the Lee Harvey Oswald legal defense fund. Mr. 20 is also right that the trail, if it goes to trail
would drag on. There would be long argument on change of venue. I think that Oswald could survive. From 1967 - 1977 all executions were tied up
in court. In 1972, the SCOTUS ruled that capital punishment as it was then practiced was unconstitutional.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 06:13 AM
Evan Evan is offline
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If Oswald is still alive and on death row in the late '60's, might we see some liberals joining forces with conservatives in support of the death penalty? JFK was well-loved, and I could definitely see a strong more-or-less-conscious desire for vengeance.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 02:28 PM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul V McNutt View Post
The delay caused by the five minutes process of getting Lee Harvey Oswald a sweater allowed Jack Ruby time to arrive. If Ruby misses Oswald then I assume he survives to face the two murder charges ( President Kennedy and Officer Tibbet) I just reread Gerald Posner's Case Closed, which describes the facts of the Kennedy assassination. The evidence against Oswald was well beyond a reasonable doubt. The rifle found on the six floor of the School Book Depository with his fingerprints on it. The witnesses that said the shot came from the sixth floor of the Depository. The two witnesses that saw Oswald shoot from the sixth floor. The five witnesses that saw him kill officer Tibbet. The fact that he left work. The witnesses that saw him hide from the police in a shoe store lobby.The two witnesses that saw him run into a movie theater without buying a ticket. So would he get a plea bargain? Could a judge give him a plea bargain without angering voters who want Oswald strung up? If he avoided the death penalty, how long does he last in prison in the isolation of protective custody? Would he at age 73 by still alive in prison or in some prison mental ward?
If convicted, death is the sentence. Now to the defense, first there are two crimes.

The officer Tibbet has multiple witness, Oswald caught with the gun. Very easy case. But to the eyewitnesses, since they have him traveling multiple routes to the crime scene, it shows eye witness make mistakes. This would be useful in the defense of the Presidential murder.

JFK - Oswald could go insanity defense or did not do it defense. Two people have been acquitted of trying to Murder the President (Reagan and Jefferson), so don't rule out his working. And he did enough strange things that one could do weeks and weeks of bizarre things Oswald did to build the defense. IMO, the government would prefer this defense. Now to the evidence. He can use all the great stuff provided by the various conspiracy theories, their evidence, and their witnesses. The defense will be able to call every last one of these people to testify, and likely some high end defense team helps Oswald. The preparation will be massive, so they trial could easily be 5 or more years after the shooting. And the appeals on each of these issue could last 10 years or more. No to the evidence that hurts and helps him.

1) The rifle. People use pictures and a mark on the rifle to say it was his rifle due to a nick. Probably true, but a good defense team will throw doubt on the nix or claim evidence tampering. Or just claim the gun was stolen. He lived in a boarding house, so easy to claim. Oswald may need to testify on this item.

2) Palm print: It is on a funny place to hold your hand on a gun, the center of stock. First, if we use stolen gun defense, then yes it is his hand print, but before it was stolen. Or he can claim the cops force his hand to touch the gun after he was arrested. For second one, he needs to testify. Hard to do, unless he can get the officer trial in a separate trial. But if he does testify, it is the most interesting testimony of the 20th century. Even today, I can't excluded that the palm print was not after Oswalds death or while he was in custody. Evidence tampering is too common in high profile crimes, or what is better called Evidence enhancement, where the cops are sure they have the right guy, but need a little buff on the evidence.

3) Witnesses with Oswald in Window. Easy to neutralize. Just bring in all the other witnesses that saw other things to neutralize. Also, from that distance, any positive ID is questionable.

4) He left work - Weren't the cops clearing the building to search it. He was calm passing the cop who talked to him. Also, a good explanation is that he was afraid, so left the area. If I thought there was an assassin in my building, I would not stay in it.

5) Hide in shoe stores - again easy. First, he is paranoid. Second, president was assassinated. Three, bring in all the other confusing statements by witnesses who went on news to say what they saw.

It would have been a very interesting, hard case for the state. And all the police mistakes that people use in the conspiracy theories would be useful. No tape of the time he was interviewed with police. The way the secret service stole the body at gun point from the Texas hospital. You may lose chain of custody right there. The body not being preserved for the defense to do its own investigation. May lose autopsy right there, and have the prosecution limited on what it can use in trial. For example, if the defense claims the body with the Zabrudor films shows the shot was from the grassy knoll, and their is misconduct by the state, the judge might throw out the prosecution ability to even claim the shot came from the building. And these types of issue will drag on, because each item will be ruled on, emergency appeal, then reappealled after the trial, and we easily could have several trials. A lot depends on does the judge want a quick conviction or does he want to demonstrate the protection of the USA legal system to the world. Remember, each day will be cover in Pravda and this is both an internal and an international trial that impacts the view of the USA world wide. While I think a conviction is very, very likely, it is not guaranteed.

Now the only way I could see a plea is if the judge starts tossing evidence, or allows too many conspiracy theories to be used by the defense. For example, if the state believes the judge may impose sanctions on the highly irregular autopsy, then the state might cut a deal before or after the ruling to avoid embarrassment. For example, the state might go to Oswald lawyers an say, we will not oppose an insanity defense. The other thing would be if Oswald was involved in a conspiracy. When people think of conspiracies, they think of S.P.E.C.T.R.E from the bond movies, but a conspiracy can be as simple as someone else had preknowledge he was going to try to assassinate or someone paid Oswald to do the killings. And even if this was not true, Oswald might take the stand and make stuff up.

Now before people scream conspiracy theory, I am not saying I can show anyone helped him. I am saying under the USA legal system, it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did not happen. For a hung jury, Oswald just needs one juror to believe, hey, the shot did come from the grassy knoll, it can't be Oswald. And since if separated trials, the officer conviction is probably done, they just might execute Oswald for the Texas trooper and forget the retrial.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 02:33 PM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolfpaw View Post
There's a brief show trial, Oswald says he's a patsy, and then he pays a visit to Old Sparky lickety split.
A quick show trial is very possible with Oswald having some lawyer who almost flunked out of law school. But a show trial would be a propaganda win for the Soviets. The could talk about how this poor many crushed by the capitalist system was allow to stay in the Soviet Union and was a model citizen. Then he was homesick so returned to the USA, and the evil capitalist system drove the man to insanity, and then the USA had a kangaroo court.

I know I am missing some of the good Marxist/Leninist statements, but this would be a home run for the USSR. And a quick show trial where Oswald does not get to bring up some vast KGB conspiracy will prove for all time the communist had nothing to do with killing. Win/win for the reds.
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Old June 1st, 2012, 02:34 PM
freethinker freethinker is offline
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You cant be serious... someone already made a thread about this...
I waited too long
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Old June 1st, 2012, 05:40 PM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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You cant be serious... someone already made a thread about this...
I waited too long

Yep, a little too long. I have been here 9 months, and I don't recall the thread. Why don't you link it?
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Old June 1st, 2012, 06:21 PM
Grey Wolf Grey Wolf is offline
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Witnesses saw.....is rather like hearsay. These witnesses for the mostpart saw a person they did not know, whom they later identified as Oswald. How unique-looking was Oswald? What distance was he seen at, especially looking UP AT, and how secure are these identifications? Were there other people who looked like Oswald around? Would the weird evidence that later seemed to arise saying he was apparently in 2 places at the same time in the months leading up to the assassination come to light?

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Old June 1st, 2012, 07:14 PM
freethinker freethinker is offline
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Yep, a little too long. I have been here 9 months, and I don't recall the thread. Why don't you link it?
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=244316

Here is the link...
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Old June 2nd, 2012, 09:32 PM
unclepatrick unclepatrick is offline
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If convicted, death is the sentence. Now to the defense, first there are two crimes.

The officer Tibbet has multiple witness, Oswald caught with the gun. Very easy case. But to the eyewitnesses, since they have him traveling multiple routes to the crime scene, it shows eye witness make mistakes. This would be useful in the defense of the Presidential murder.

JFK - Oswald could go insanity defense or did not do it defense. Two people have been acquitted of trying to Murder the President (Reagan and Jefferson), so don't rule out his working. And he did enough strange things that one could do weeks and weeks of bizarre things Oswald did to build the defense. IMO, the government would prefer this defense. Now to the evidence. He can use all the great stuff provided by the various conspiracy theories, their evidence, and their witnesses. The defense will be able to call every last one of these people to testify, and likely some high end defense team helps Oswald. The preparation will be massive, so they trial could easily be 5 or more years after the shooting. And the appeals on each of these issue could last 10 years or more. No to the evidence that hurts and helps him.

1) The rifle. People use pictures and a mark on the rifle to say it was his rifle due to a nick. Probably true, but a good defense team will throw doubt on the nix or claim evidence tampering. Or just claim the gun was stolen. He lived in a boarding house, so easy to claim. Oswald may need to testify on this item.

2) Palm print: It is on a funny place to hold your hand on a gun, the center of stock. First, if we use stolen gun defense, then yes it is his hand print, but before it was stolen. Or he can claim the cops force his hand to touch the gun after he was arrested. For second one, he needs to testify. Hard to do, unless he can get the officer trial in a separate trial. But if he does testify, it is the most interesting testimony of the 20th century. Even today, I can't excluded that the palm print was not after Oswalds death or while he was in custody. Evidence tampering is too common in high profile crimes, or what is better called Evidence enhancement, where the cops are sure they have the right guy, but need a little buff on the evidence.

3) Witnesses with Oswald in Window. Easy to neutralize. Just bring in all the other witnesses that saw other things to neutralize. Also, from that distance, any positive ID is questionable.

4) He left work - Weren't the cops clearing the building to search it. He was calm passing the cop who talked to him. Also, a good explanation is that he was afraid, so left the area. If I thought there was an assassin in my building, I would not stay in it.

5) Hide in shoe stores - again easy. First, he is paranoid. Second, president was assassinated. Three, bring in all the other confusing statements by witnesses who went on news to say what they saw.

It would have been a very interesting, hard case for the state. And all the police mistakes that people use in the conspiracy theories would be useful. No tape of the time he was interviewed with police. The way the secret service stole the body at gun point from the Texas hospital. You may lose chain of custody right there. The body not being preserved for the defense to do its own investigation. May lose autopsy right there, and have the prosecution limited on what it can use in trial. For example, if the defense claims the body with the Zabrudor films shows the shot was from the grassy knoll, and their is misconduct by the state, the judge might throw out the prosecution ability to even claim the shot came from the building. And these types of issue will drag on, because each item will be ruled on, emergency appeal, then reappealled after the trial, and we easily could have several trials. A lot depends on does the judge want a quick conviction or does he want to demonstrate the protection of the USA legal system to the world. Remember, each day will be cover in Pravda and this is both an internal and an international trial that impacts the view of the USA world wide. While I think a conviction is very, very likely, it is not guaranteed.

Now the only way I could see a plea is if the judge starts tossing evidence, or allows too many conspiracy theories to be used by the defense. For example, if the state believes the judge may impose sanctions on the highly irregular autopsy, then the state might cut a deal before or after the ruling to avoid embarrassment. For example, the state might go to Oswald lawyers an say, we will not oppose an insanity defense. The other thing would be if Oswald was involved in a conspiracy. When people think of conspiracies, they think of S.P.E.C.T.R.E from the bond movies, but a conspiracy can be as simple as someone else had preknowledge he was going to try to assassinate or someone paid Oswald to do the killings. And even if this was not true, Oswald might take the stand and make stuff up.

Now before people scream conspiracy theory, I am not saying I can show anyone helped him. I am saying under the USA legal system, it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did not happen. For a hung jury, Oswald just needs one juror to believe, hey, the shot did come from the grassy knoll, it can't be Oswald. And since if separated trials, the officer conviction is probably done, they just might execute Oswald for the Texas trooper and forget the retrial.
Thank you for you posting. I agree with you on the problem of trying Oswald for Kennedy shoting. I not saying I think that Oswald is inocent, but any Court of Law that allow the Autopy result in, would give Oswald lawyers, ground for appeal.
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  #18  
Old June 2nd, 2012, 09:52 PM
MattII MattII is offline
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Doesn't change things for Oswald, but there'll be fewer conspiracy nuts.
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 12:32 AM
Paul V McNutt Paul V McNutt is offline
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Thank you for you posting. I agree with you on the problem of trying Oswald for Kennedy shoting. I not saying I think that Oswald is inocent, but any Court of Law that allow the Autopy result in, would give Oswald lawyers, ground for appeal.
Why would the autopsy be a problem? I assume that autopsy results are often evidence in murder cases.

Last edited by Paul V McNutt; June 3rd, 2012 at 12:53 AM..
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Old June 3rd, 2012, 12:55 AM
Paul V McNutt Paul V McNutt is offline
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killing is different than attempted murder..
Notice that Sirhan Sirhan is still in prison.
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