Largest Possible Number of Germanic Languages?

Not sure if this should go in post-1900 but since it would have a POD before i'll put it here;

What is the largest possible number of Germanic languages we can have by modern day?

I'd say we could have parts of France speaking (a) Frankish dialect(s);
also the goths in Iberia and North Africa;
Maybe Greenlandic is still alive?

Any more possible? How many?
 
Have the Thirty Year War be even more devastating to Germany and Central Europe even more religiously polarized. The HRE ceases to exist even in name and is replaced by dozens of fiefdoms across OTL Germany.The result, when nationalism eventually arises, no concept of "Germany" exists. There are Saxon, Bavarian, Hessian, Prussian, etc Germanic languages, but no German language. Right there are at least 15 languages.
 
Have the Thirty Year War be even more devastating to Germany and Central Europe even more religiously polarized. The HRE ceases to exist even in name and is replaced by dozens of fiefdoms across OTL Germany.The result, when nationalism eventually arises, no concept of "Germany" exists. There are Saxon, Bavarian, Hessian, Prussian, etc Germanic languages, but no German language. Right there are at least 15 languages.
True but those all belong to the low german dialects of the west germanic languages; so they're pretty much the same.

I was thinking a POD much further back.
 
True but those all belong to the low german dialects of the west germanic languages; so they're pretty much the same.

I was thinking a POD much further back.

No. Austro-Bavarian and Allemanic are Upper German, High Franconian in the Transitionnal area and Central German further north. Low German is what comes from the Old Saxon. With a disunited germany you could easily got 2 or 3 different germanic languages in it.
 
English, Scots, Yola, Fingalian

Butterfly the unification of England as a state and you could end up with:

Mercian, Wessex, Northumbrian, Kentish, East Anglian

That's about it for the British Isles
 

Delvestius

Banned
If the Franks kept their own language instead of switching to Latin, we could see four or five languages spring up in Gaul.
 
There are a few 'dialects' in Sweden that could be seen as seperate languages since they can't, I repeat can't be understood by a speaker of standard Swedish. Sure they are not spoken by many people today but with the right POD they could potentially keep larger number of speakers and get an official status as seperate languages
 
Maybe have the creoles of English develop further into real different languages so that thier main characteristics come from English but also have enough of other bits thrown in to become unintelligible to other English speakers. That could be a load of different Germanic languages there!
 
As for those islands in the southern atlantic they are currently inhabited by english speakers who as far as I know wish to remain part of the UK we'll call them the Falklands. Not living in the UK or Argentina its not my fight, but is it really worth another war?
 
Easiest scenario:
Linguists relax their requirements of what qualifies as a language ... ;)

Seriously, there is a wide variety of possible scenarios. Unfortunately, you didn't specify whether you prefer the existing languages to ramify ...
or extinct languages to be conserved in some form ...
or new languages arise where there was none IOTL.
There are good chances for each of these.


Let me point out two ideas by which you would gain a lot of languages at once:

1. No Germany.

"The Germans" as a nation arose very differently than many others; it is basically a union of several quite different Germanic tribes (which, a couple of centuries earlier, also came about as combat alliances between small tribes). Becoming one people was a process that took place in many individual relations roughly from 700 to 1100; but there are two kings that played a major role in this unification. This makes the process vulnerable to AH :D.
These two are

  1. Charlemagne,
  2. Otto the Great.

In particular, if Otto doesn't manage to gather armies from all tribes, or perhaps even if he only loses against the Hungarians, power would fall back to the tribal dukes, and the Kingdom of Germany would become as theoretical as the Italian one.

This is relevant here not because German language would diverge in lack of a political link. It would lead to roughly half a dozen different languages instead of OTL's German because these tribal idioms already were languages¹). IOTL, they only converged to one because of the intensive mutual contact.²) So, let the tribal duchies wage a lot of war against each other, or create more intensive links from them to other peoples (French/Danes/Italians/Hungarians/Czechs/Vinds/Poles). This should shift their focus.




2. More Germanic languages in colonies.

I'm aware of only two Germanic languages that arose in European colonies (in a wide sense):

Africaans (from Dutch) and
Pennsylvanian Dutch/"Amish" (from German).³)

There must be plenty of possibilities to create more, starting from a surviving Vinland.



The example of Pennsylvanian shows that the settlers with a Germanic language needn't be the masters of the land, they only need the opportunity to settle there. Then they need either

a) a strong motivation to stay among themselves (as OTL's two examples), or
b) become the majority in a region.

Connection with the colonial motherland (if any) may even prevent the formation of a new language: American/Australian English, and American Spanish are usually considered the same language as their European correspondents.







¹) Today's linguists tend to count all of them as one language, often even with the inclusion of the neighboring minority idioms, Langobardian (Italy) and Western Franconian (France).
There are good arguments for this; but the particular case of Old Saxonian (Northern Germany) is hard to define as the same language as, say, Bavarian, at least if you don't know the future development. From my point of view, Old Saxonian and Old Bavarian around 800 AD are comparably different from each other as Italian and Spanish today.
As for the others, I suppose, one can safely claim at least that they were standing on the sill to becoming individual languages.


²) While I'm at it: Dutch did not diverge from German. It just converged a bit less to the idioms now called German than those themselves. Politics is often irrelevant: The system of two languages Dutch - German had come to a clear end before the Dutch Independence.
At least that's my understanding - contradicting arguments welcome.

³) No, I don't count the settlement of Iceland as a colony any more.
 
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Easiest scenario:
Linguists relax their requirements of what qualifies as a language ... ;)

Seriously, there is a wide variety of possible scenarios. Unfortunately, you didn't specify whether you prefer the existing languages to ramify ...
or extinct languages to be conserved in some form ...
or new languages arise where there was none IOTL.
There are good chances for each of these.


Let me point out two ideas by which you would gain a lot of languages at once:

1. No Germany.

"The Germans" as a nation arose very differently than many others; it is basically a union of several quite different Germanic tribes (which, a couple of centuries earlier, also came about as combat alliances between small tribes). Becoming one people was a process that took place in many individual relations roughly from 700 to 1100; but there are two kings that played a major role in this unification. This makes the process vulnerable to AH :D.
These two are

  1. Charlemagne,
  2. Otto the Great.

In particular, if Otto doesn't manage to gather armies from all tribes, or perhaps even if he only loses against the Hungarians, power would fall back to the tribal dukes, and the Kingdom of Germany would become as theoretical as the Italian one.

This is relevant here not because German language would diverge in lack of a political link. It would lead to roughly half a dozen different languages instead of OTL's German because these tribal idioms already were languages¹). IOTL, they only converged to one because of the intensive mutual contact.²) So, let the tribal duchies wage a lot of war against each other, or create more intensive links from them to other peoples (French/Danes/Italians/Hungarians/Czechs/Vinds/Poles). This should shift their focus.




2. More Germanic languages in colonies.

I'm aware of only two Germanic languages that arose in a European colony (in a wide sense):

Africaans (from Dutch) and
Pennsylvanian Dutch/"Amish" (from German).³)

There must be plenty of possibilities to create more, starting from a surviving Vinland.



The example of Pennsylvanian shows that the settlers with a Germanic language needn't be the masters of the land, they only need the opportunity to settle there. Then they need either

a) a strong motivation to stay among themselves (as OTL's two examples), or
b) become the majority in a region.

Connection with the colonial motherland (if any) may even prevent the formation of a new language: American/Australian English, and American Spanish are usually considered the same language as their European correspondents.







¹) Today's linguists tend to count all of them as one language, often even with the inclusion of the neighboring minority idioms, Langobardian (Italy) and Western Franconian (France).
There are good arguments for this; but the particular case of Old Saxonian (Northern Germany) is hard to define as the same language as, say, Bavarian, at least if you don't know the future development. From my point of view, Old Saxonian and Old Bavarian around 800 AD are comparably different from each other as Italian and Spanish today.
At least, I suppose, one can safely claim that they were standing on the sill to becoming individual languages.


²) While I'm at it: Dutch did not diverge from German. It just converged a bit less to the idioms now called German than those themselves. Politics is often irrelevant: The system of two languages Dutch - German had come to a clear end before the Dutch Independence.
At least that's my understanding - contradicting arguments welcome.

³) No, I don't count the settlement of Iceland as a colony any more.

You know english is Germanic right? I'm just saying this because you said that the languages evolved from dutch were the only Germanic colonies.

Anyway, I meant while keeping the current languages how can more develop from older languages.

I think i've come up with some (you can be the judge of how realistic)

1. Scottish has more Norse influence than Anglo-Saxon and thus is a completely different language than English, same with Irie.

2. The Swedes colonize the Rus, as well as Goths stay around their.

3. Vinland succeeds and
 
You know english is Germanic right? I'm just saying this because you said that the languages evolved from dutch were the only Germanic colonies.

Errrrm, .... no, I said something different. I you read carefully, you may find the words


... only two Germanic languages that arose in European colonies.


Emphasis added, as the scholars say.
So can you name a third language that arose in a colony - if you like, from English or Danish?

Again, I don't count American English as a language of its own, as it is far too similar to British English. This seems to be widely accepted as well.

(Moreover, Pennsylvanian Dutch did not originate from Dutch.)


Anyway, I meant while keeping the current languages how can more develop from older languages.

So, you mean ramifying (rather than extinct ones)?
Then go with new languages in colonies.

Below, you also speak about the extinct Gothic - this is obviously another story.



1. Scottish has more Norse influence than Anglo-Saxon and thus is a completely different language than English, same with Irie.

Afaik "Scots" was rather different from "England-English" as late as in the 19th century. Let the momentum from the nationalistic movements on the Continent spread to Scotland early; that might even do the trick. Independence is not necessary, just a sufficient motivation to keep the language alive.


As with English in Ireland: Possible, but harder. As with many other examples here, I think you have to cut the link to the motherland (here: England) early enough to create a new language.
Perhaps a very early extinction of Gaelic might help: Then Irish identity might be linked to Ireland's version of English.


2. The Swedes colonize the Rus,

Good idea. Of course, this needs some reason how they become populous enough there. Again: Cut the link to the motherland to create a language (should be easy here).


as well as Goths stay around their.

There in Russia? This would of course be a dramatic early PoD. You can basically infer anything in such a TL ..
 
So can you name a third language that arose in a colony - if you like, from English or Danish?

Tok Pisin, one of the official languages of Papua New Guinea. As a sample, here's the Lord's Prayer, American English it ain't -

Papa bilong mipela
Yu stap long heven.
Nem bilong yu i mas i stap holi.
Kingdom bilong yu i mas i kam.
Strongim mipela long bihainim laik bilong yu long graun,
olsem ol i bihainim long heven.
Givim mipela kaikai inap long tude.
Pogivim rong bilong mipela,
olsem mipela i pogivim ol arapela i mekim rong long mipela.
Sambai long mipela long taim bilong traim.
Na rausim olgeta samting nogut long mipela.
Kingdom na strong na glori, em i bilong yu tasol oltaim oltaim.
Tru.

There are dozens of similar such pidgins around the Pacific and Africa. Some of them (like Tok Pisin) even have official status....
 
True but those all belong to the low german dialects of the west germanic languages; so they're pretty much the same.

Then you are basically wanting surviving East Germanic languages because North and West German are already well represented. Since that is the case, you need an East Germanic homeland to survive.

Once the Vandals, Goths, etc. migrate to the more populated areas of the Roman Empire, it is inevitable that they'll lose their language and adopt the local tongue. The only time it didn't happen is during the Saxon conquest of England, and that area had a much less entrenched Roman culture.

Somehow, the area around Bohemia/Poland/Ukraine would need to remain Germanic. That could keep an area that spoke Gothic, Crimean Gothic, Burgundian or what have you. Let's assume we still lose the Visigoths and Vandals to emigration.

This means we need a POD in the 6th Century where the Slavs don't migrate/conquer the Eastern Alps, Sudetes, Carpathian mountains, or western steppes close to it. To achieve that, we might even need a POD going back to the Huns in the late 4th century.
 
Not sure if this should go in post-1900 but since it would have a POD before i'll put it here;

What is the largest possible number of Germanic languages we can have by modern day?

As many as one wants. There are so many ways one can take from Proto-Germanic.

Maybe Greenlandic is still alive?

Greenlandic the Norse dialect?

(Next time, be more specific - the Greenlandic language, by and large, today is not a Germanic language but an Inuit-Aleut one.)
 
Tok Pisin
[...]
There are dozens of similar such pidgins around the Pacific and Africa. Some of them (like Tok Pisin) even have official status....


True, if you count Pidgin and/or Creole languages as a wildcard in two language families.


__________________

As for the Eastern German languages, if you really want to keep a big chunk of them to survive, you basically need to keep them alive somewhere less densely populated, which basically means outside the Roman Empire (yes, Britain would also work). Of course, this would be a very severe inroad for a PoD; anything could happen to the Western Germanic
languages in such a scenario, including extinction.

A better way to keep small islands of Eastern Germanic languages might be shown by the example of Crimean Gothic - at least if we embrace the hypothesis that it was indeed an offspring of Gothic.


However, Burgundy not being absorbed by the Francs might also suffice to rescue Burgundian: You may reach a regional split between French/Occitan and Burgundian inside 7th-9th century Burgundy.

Preventing the Frankish hegemony may be the key to quite a lot of different desired effects. We could have "Burgundian", and we would definitely have the "No Germany" effect. Note that there were several smaller Eastern Germanic tribes that had joined one of the big alliances (Francs, Bavarians etc.). If the military pressure from the East (Huns etc.) decreases, they might be able to settle down on their own, founding small Eastern Germanic communities in OTL's Germany and Poland.

________________________


As for the colonies, I have a rather weird idea.
At an early stage of colonization of the Americas, let Spain (or Portugal) cooperate with some other nation to colonize (perhaps merchants first). As argued above, I think it is helpful for splitting of a language of its own if the colony is politically and socially cut off from the motherland of its language; this is why I use Spain as a "carrier".

This colonial language might be English, German, or (most likely) Dutch. The latter would require more intensive dependence of the Low Countries on Spain. Of course, such a colonization cooperation could only work if Spain's partner also stays Catholic (unless you only send religious refugees to the New World). But - why not Swedish?

Keep Sweden Catholic, but let it advance in power as it did IOTL's 16th century. (To keep things interesting, let the Austrian Habsburgs convert to Protestantism - there were several important individuals who wanted to follow that path - which would undo the link to the Spanish kings.) A dialect of Swedish, with a lot of Spanish and Qetchua words in it? Or. Northern Germanic in the Caribbean, anyone?
 
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