WI/CH: No Feudalism

Okay, is it possible for Feudalism to never exist? If so, what are the consequences to history as we know it? Does this make industrialization easier? After all, it was feudal elites that prevented it from occurring earlier in many countries, so is it possible to prevent all together?

Now, this is quite difficult, which is why this is both a challenge and a what if. But basically, yes, prevent Feudalism from ever occurring, or at least never on a large enough scale to impact things like industrialization.

Hopefully this at least involves different eras than usual.:p
 
Well, make Europe a safer place, so that merchants and artisans are more important. This could be done by, say, having the Roman Empire not fall. But yeah, that's a whole different can of worms.
 
Hmm, perhaps France and Germany being one country? Franco-Germany would certainly consolidate a lot more territory, for one thing.
 
Well, make Europe a safer place, so that merchants and artisans are more important. This could be done by, say, having the Roman Empire not fall. But yeah, that's a whole different can of worms.
There was effectively already an early form of feudalism in the [Western] Roman Empire, during its later stages: Not with 'knights in armour', admittedly, but certainly with the landowner/serf relationship.

And, for that matter, systems that could accurately enough be placed under the label of 'feudalism' also arose separately in several other cultures too: Consider the Japanese during their 'Warring Clans' and 'Shogunate' periods, for one obvious example...
 
There was effectively already an early form of feudalism in the [Western] Roman Empire, during its later stages: Not with 'knights in armour', admittedly, but certainly with the landowner/serf relationship.

And, for that matter, systems that could accurately enough be placed under the label of 'feudalism' also arose separately in several other cultures too: Consider the Japanese during their 'Warring Clans' and 'Shogunate' periods, for one obvious example...

Well, how do we get rid of all that? How can one prevent Feudalism from occurring?
 
There was effectively already an early form of feudalism in the [Western] Roman Empire, during its later stages: Not with 'knights in armour', admittedly, but certainly with the landowner/serf relationship.

And, for that matter, systems that could accurately enough be placed under the label of 'feudalism' also arose separately in several other cultures too: Consider the Japanese during their 'Warring Clans' and 'Shogunate' periods, for one obvious example...
Oh, my bad, I thought he said 'no feudalism in Europe'.

Anyway, I can easily be wrong, but the feudalism of the Roman empire arose because it became less stable, more dangerous, right? If that's true, then keeping Rome strong would prevent that.

But as I said, having a millennium-spanning Roman empire is basically impossible.
 
Something to distract the Vikings and get most of them to go west instead of east, like, wildly successful colonization of North America and some natural disasters in Scandinavia encouraging same.

That and some deviously brilliant or brilliantly devious Roman subjugation of the Germans to keep Europe under Rome's thumb on an ongoing basis, as expressed earlier I believe.


OR............

Nothing stops the Caliphate in France. They just go, go, go. Islamic-fostered arts and sciences thrive, every country in Europe ends up with at least one city that is the equivalent of Baghdad before it was sacked by the Mongols, and it's just roses and sherbet and algebra.
 
Just about any mature pre-industrial agrarian society will have some significant features of feudalism.

A divide will tend to emerge between a landed aristocracy and an unlanded peasantry. Malthusian effects make yeomanry unstable in the long term once all available arable land has been concentrated: successful yeomen will tend to accumulate wealth and land, while unsuccessful yeomen are likely to be forced to sell, and any families that have multiple surviving heirs will have to subdivide their holdings (leading to penny-parcels of land too small to support a yeoman family) or concentrate inheritance on a single heir (leading to the main line of heirs holding all the land, while secondary branches are left landless).

A military caste will tend to emerge, and they'll tend to either be the landed aristocrats or be loyal clients of the landed aristocrats. Being an effective warrior with pre-gunpowder weapons is a full-time job that takes a decade or more to learn well, and good weapons, armor, and warhorses are horrendously expensive in a pre-industrial society. The only people with enough money to support these full-time soldiers will be large landowners. Peasant levies and yeoman militias did exist, but they were generally used to bulk out an army formed around a core of knights and men-at-arms, and were rarely effective without that core.

This military caste, or whoever commands their loyalty, will tend to dominate government, simply because government is based on the organized use of force.

A decentralized power structure based on personal loyalty and family connections will tend to emerge. As is frequently observed on this board, the fatal flaw of the Roman Empire was size vs. travel and communications technology: if it takes a month for the Emperor to hear what's going on in a frontier province, and then another month for him to do anything about it, then his ability to rule is very flawed. His best bet is to put someone he trusts in charge of day-to-day and even month-to-month affairs, and give that someone enough direct power to manage most problems on his own. And without the kind of information and legal institutions seen in modern first-world countries, that level of trust almost always has to be based on personal loyalty and family connections.

That said, though, there's lots of ways that you can mix things up. These are only tendencies, not laws of physics, and deviating from the feudal model somewhat can be made to work at a moderate stability cost.

One alternate model often seen historically was for a strong central government to exist based on a revenue stream of plunder and tribute from neighboring states or conquered client states. This revenue stream can then be used to train and pay long-enlistment professional soldiers who do the job of a military caste. Regional governors would still be needed, and would still be tied to the central government by personal loyalty, but the central government with its professional army would be much better able to make and break regional governors, making them appointed officials rather than feudal magnates. This was more-or-less the model the Roman Empire followed, and many Middle Eastern states in classical times followed a similar model.

Another alternate model is the Mandarin model seen in China, where a non-hereditary class of scholar-bureaucrats, centrally educated and loyal to the system that gives them status, wield enough governing power on behalf of the central authority in order to significantly dilute the power and status of the military caste and the landed aristocracy.

It'd be very interesting to come up with a way to make the Mandarin model work in Medieval Europe. There were already some seeds of the model present in the early Medieval period, with the monastic education system creating a class of scholars who collectively had a near-monopoly on literacy and non-vocational knowledge, celibacy rules to prevent church officials from turning into landed aristocrats, and a formal church hierarchy with the Pope as central authority.
 
Post the fall of the Roman Empire I think the only way is to have the Papal Monarchy/Donation of Constantine movement succeed and create a China or Rome esque non-hereditary bureaucratic Empire. The real problem is that as China demonstrated such a society may not be able to industrialise and given the Churches preference for building Cathedrals of training soldiers it may not be able to defend itself against external threats.
 
Eh, China partially couldn't industrialize because its manpower meant it didn't need labor saving devices, not the case with Europe.

So yes, a more administrative style state would prevent Feudalism, or at least heavily mitigate it, the main objectives of this particular scenario.
 
Another alternate model is the Mandarin model seen in China, where a non-hereditary class of scholar-bureaucrats, centrally educated and loyal to the system that gives them status, wield enough governing power on behalf of the central authority in order to significantly dilute the power and status of the military caste and the landed aristocracy.

But China had interludes of feudalism when the social order broke down. Feudalism tends to appear whenever there is a breakdown in central rule - Europe, the Arab world, Japan and China all had feudal periods, and it wouldn't stretch a point that much to describe parts of modern Africa as feudal. In order to eliminate any form of feudalism, you'd have to eliminate all collapses of civilization, which seems vanishingly unlikely.
 
But China had interludes of feudalism when the social order broke down. Feudalism tends to appear whenever there is a breakdown in central rule - Europe, the Arab world, Japan and China all had feudal periods, and it wouldn't stretch a point that much to describe parts of modern Africa as feudal. In order to eliminate any form of feudalism, you'd have to eliminate all collapses of civilization, which seems vanishingly unlikely.

But for China, I can think of only two very short-lived attempts at feudalism in the last thousand years, neither of which worked out, unless the Warlord Era of the early 20th century counts as feudalism, which would make it at best three. Even before that, feudalism as we recognize it probably peaked around 700-500 BCE. After that was arguably inter-state warfare. In between, I can see how one might call the political structure in China feudal, but it was probably too centralized to call it that.
 

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Hmm, perhaps France and Germany being one country? Franco-Germany would certainly consolidate a lot more territory, for one thing.
I don't see how this would help: feudalism isn't perpetuated by lack of the theoretical territories of kingdom being too small.
 
But China had interludes of feudalism when the social order broke down. Feudalism tends to appear whenever there is a breakdown in central rule - Europe, the Arab world, Japan and China all had feudal periods, and it wouldn't stretch a point that much to describe parts of modern Africa as feudal. In order to eliminate any form of feudalism, you'd have to eliminate all collapses of civilization, which seems vanishingly unlikely.

I don't think we actually disagree much. What I was trying to get at was that Mandarin China still had significant feudal traits mixed in with traits of a bureaucratic state, and that you can't really get rid of feudal traits entirely in an agrarian pre-industrial society because there are so many factors pushing towards a feudal model. The mixed model's significantly different from European feudalism despite sharing a number of traits in common, and I think that's about as far as you can get from feudalism in pre-industrial Europe.
 
There was actually an essay on this very subject in the first "What If...?" book. Two possible PODs were proposed:

1. A Roman victory over the Visigoths at Adrianople in 378, which buys the Roman Empire enough time to regroup its defenses and reignite confidence and political will. This saves the Roman Empire from its decline and keeps Europe unified under Rome. The end result is that the Roman Empire continues, but what this means is continued centralization and hierarchy, with the pope still subordinate to the emperor, and most likely without any eventual calls for reformation, parliamentarianism, democracy, and the like getting very far.

or 2. A Muslim victory over the Franks at Poitiers around 732, which sees a complete Islamic conquest of Europe, which remains under a unified caliphate. Such a society would also have been hierarchical and slaveholding, but would've enjoyed all the benefits of the Islamic Golden Age, from infrastructural development to the patronage of arts, science, and philosophy to cultural diversity to prosperous trade economies.

In both cases, the author argues that while this would've meant stability and cultural development, it would've prevented the ideas of secularism and individualism that were made possible in the decentralized feudal age, which in turn means no development of democracy or republicanism as we know them.
 
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