I seem to remember this topic coming up at least once before but it never hurts to rehash old ideas. A friend of mine called me the other day to complain about the horse he fell from during his holiday. After some conversation on predetermination he asked what would we do without the beasts? So, the question to you all – the world without horses (either extinct say…5000 years ago, or never evolved).
Horses?
- Thread starter Tynnin
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Flocculencio
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People living in areas with camels get an amazing advantage in warfare.
Perhaps goats are bred up in size and we get goat cavalry too?
Perhaps goats are bred up in size and we get goat cavalry too?
Flocculencio
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Yeah but members of the deer family generally don't have the right social structure for domestication.
Re goats: Weren't the original domesticated horses about that size too? (or a bit larger) Goats are pretty strong so they could be bred up in size to be used as pack animals and later for riding. They probably wouldn't be anywhere near as big as the large modern horse breeds but pony size might be feasible i.e. the sort of small horses that the Native Americans used.
I was thinking about the possibilities of breeding riding dogs but the big dog breeds we have now have enough structural problems already and ideally you want an animal that can graze and that won't take up valuable and hard to transport meat that you could otherwise feed to your troops.
Elephants- trouble here is that they're slow breeding and not particularly domesticable either (Asian elephants are trapped in the wild) although easier to tame than the deer family. Also they're a bit too intelligent to be used effectively in battle- remember that war elephants used to go berserk and do just as much damage to their own troops.
Re goats: Weren't the original domesticated horses about that size too? (or a bit larger) Goats are pretty strong so they could be bred up in size to be used as pack animals and later for riding. They probably wouldn't be anywhere near as big as the large modern horse breeds but pony size might be feasible i.e. the sort of small horses that the Native Americans used.
I was thinking about the possibilities of breeding riding dogs but the big dog breeds we have now have enough structural problems already and ideally you want an animal that can graze and that won't take up valuable and hard to transport meat that you could otherwise feed to your troops.
Elephants- trouble here is that they're slow breeding and not particularly domesticable either (Asian elephants are trapped in the wild) although easier to tame than the deer family. Also they're a bit too intelligent to be used effectively in battle- remember that war elephants used to go berserk and do just as much damage to their own troops.
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NapoleonXIV
Banned
Oh cmon, next you'll be talking about sheep the size of VW camper vans.
Camel, Llamas.
I've always wondered why we don't ride cattle. They graze, are docile, strong and aggressive enough for war.
And we've done this before. I remember now. My final pick was an animal that is intelligent, and tractable, loyal and a doughty fighter when raised, gifted with keen senses and the ability to eat almost anything.
And pigs are delicious too.
Camel, Llamas.
I've always wondered why we don't ride cattle. They graze, are docile, strong and aggressive enough for war.
And we've done this before. I remember now. My final pick was an animal that is intelligent, and tractable, loyal and a doughty fighter when raised, gifted with keen senses and the ability to eat almost anything.
And pigs are delicious too.
Flocculencio
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NapoleonXIV said:
Damn- if you bred up pigs in size selecting for speed and muscle and slapped armour on them they'd be pretty fearsome.
Flocculencio
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NapoleonXIV said:
Well if Llamas, why not goats? They're present in the Old World and humans have time to breed them up to size just like we did with horses.
Wasn't there an African king whose warriors had riding cattle? Or was that just fiction?
Could a possible outcome of this be a proliferation of war animals? Going with the war pig and war dog idea – how about in stead of cavalry we have hosts war animals. The flaming pig! The armored warthog! The savage Irish wolf hound! The ferocious Bear legions!
Though, maybe not as they would consume much and return little – still, there something to be said for an army sporting bears.
Though, maybe not as they would consume much and return little – still, there something to be said for an army sporting bears.
...The sheep-lords loomed larger and the fierce war-bleats of their mounts could now be heard. Tall and blond were the Roi-Tanners, wearers of helmets topped with cruel-looking spikes and small toothbrush mustaches. The wanderers saw too that they wore long boots and short leathern pants with suspenders and held long spikes that looked like lead-weighted dust-mops.
- Bored of the Rings, Chapter Six, "The Riders of Roi-Tan"
- Bored of the Rings, Chapter Six, "The Riders of Roi-Tan"
Flocculencio
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Straha said:
What do you mean camels can't handle cold winters? The Bactrian ones do fine in Central Asia and dromedaries can handle the cold of Northern India and Afghanistan with no problems whatsoever.
Plus without horses you'd probably see camels bred specifically to handle colder climates
And riding goats- once again I must emphasize the Riding Goats
Yuppie: Guns, Germs and Steel is like unto the Bible for many of us
Hendryk
Banned
Seconded. An animal that can survive equally well in the sun-baked wastes of the Sahara and the frozen plateaus of the Himalayas has got to be a winner in a no-horse TL.Flocculencio said:
Though the idea of breeding porcines for war is certainly an interesting idea. It's true those critters are plenty tough even in their natural state. Run into a wild boar with your car, the boar may not be the more damaged of the two.
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Hendryk said:
I think it's a cool idea but like I said the disadvantages might be similar to elephants- pigs, like elephants are smart and not particularly docile and seem liable to go berserk if they get hurt.
Flocculencio
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Another note- you'd probably see Bactrian descended breeds used for transporting goods as they're stronger. Dromedary descended breeds would probably be used as cavalry as they're a helluva lot faster.
Here's a page with some information about different OTL breeds of camel:
http://camelphotos.com/DifferentTypesP1.html
Here's a page with some information about different OTL breeds of camel:
http://camelphotos.com/DifferentTypesP1.html
Hendryk
Banned
I kinda like the two-hump camel as a pack animal. In my "1435" TL, I had some released into the wilds of both North and South America by Chinese settlers, much as in OTL the dromedary was released in the Australian outback, where it seems to have done quite well.Flocculencio said:
Flocculencio
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Hendryk said:
Interesting- I wonder how the Bactrians would work out in America. For some reason, dromedaries have only done well in the wild in Australia- there were some used in the 19th century Western US and some escaped but they never successfully took root as a feral population.
Hendryk
Banned
I heard about that, though I'm not sure if they died out of natural causes of were simply shot by settlers. But I think the Bactrian subspecies is better adapted to the cold deserts of the Western US, as well as the Andean altiplano, and would thrive there if given the chance.Flocculencio said: