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  #8821  
Old September 17th, 2012, 07:57 PM
Astrodragon Astrodragon is offline
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Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm View Post
Yay it's finally here!!

So not surprisingly confusion reigns among the IJN, as per OTL. It's going to be a pretty awful moment for Yamamoto and Nagumo when they realise just what's out there. Interesting comment about Lyster's plans "no intention at the moment..."
While the confusion is different, and for different reasons, I consider confusion to be caused by the Japanese organisation and doctrine, it isn't going away. To be even, neither is the problems the USN have of getting strikes together.
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  #8822  
Old September 17th, 2012, 07:58 PM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by mno131415 View Post
Well, considering that my English is entirely self-learned (I had no English instructions (1) whatsoever) I think that I can be happy that you have understanded (2) me at all...
1) Next time say "lessons" or "education". Instructions are a word (as an example) for how-to manuals.

2) There is no word "understanded", though I acknowledge that slang users employ it from time to time. The word is "understood".

usertron2020 in Vocabulary Cat Nazi Mode.
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  #8823  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:03 PM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist View Post
snails pshaww

roast bone marrow on toast.

pig spleen wrapped in bacon

rhubarb with chilli icecream

and a Chateau Ausone 2002

Or possibly an update.
And you wonder why France went to war with you for a thousand years.
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  #8824  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Garrison Garrison is offline
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Mice opening. The Japanese are confused but probably thinking that their intelligence estimates were on the money; which means there are four carriers they aren't remotely expecting creeping up on them. Or will be once they locate the IJN carriers...
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  #8825  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:12 PM
Paulo the Limey Paulo the Limey is offline
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Originally Posted by Astrodragon View Post
Nagumo's search planes were still searching for the US carriers. The Japanese search philosophy was quite different from that of the USN or RN, depending on planes flown from cruisers rather than carrier planes. As a result the search did not spot the first of the US Task Forces until around 0720, and the presence of carriers was not confirmed until 0740. The US carriers were some distance apart, and so the search plane only reported two carriers plus escorts. This was actually what the Japanese were expecting - it now fitted the earlier sighting, which was obviously a late-arriving US carrier rushing to reinforce.
Ah, so the Japanese are falling into the trap of seeing exactly what they expected, and nothing else. It isn't clear which Task Force they've spotted, but whichever one it is is in for a world of hurt when the IJN strike arrives.

Do the USN know they've been spotted? If so, have they copied the IJN tactic of following back the scout planes to the opposing fleet?
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  #8826  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:17 PM
MattII MattII is offline
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So, the Japanese are assuming they've found the three carriers they were searching for, but in fact have found only two of those carriers, (the third was not actually one they were after) and have missed two others, plus the rest of Force Z. Meanwhile, their attack has revealed approximately their own position.

Cue some major ass-kicking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo the Limey View Post
Do the USN know they've been spotted? If so, have they copied the IJN tactic of following back the scout planes to the opposing fleet?
Well they already know about where the Japanese are from their attack on Midway, but if they have, then that just gives them a bit more to work with.
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  #8827  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:22 PM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Astrodragon View Post
While the confusion is different, and for different reasons, I consider confusion to be caused by the Japanese organisation and doctrine, it isn't going away. To be even, neither is the problems the USN have of getting strikes together.
So many of those air crews were on their first combat missions.
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  #8828  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:27 PM
Cymraeg Cymraeg is offline
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Originally Posted by usertron2020 View Post
And you wonder why France went to war with you for a thousand years.
Psaw! That's nothing! We Cymraeg have been at war with the English for 1,500 years! Now THAT'S a grudge!
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  #8829  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:37 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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Originally Posted by usertron2020 View Post
1) Next time say "lessons" or "education". Instructions are a word (as an example) for how-to manuals.

2) There is no word "understanded", though I acknowledge that slang users employ it from time to time. The word is "understood".

usertron2020 in Vocabulary Cat Nazi Mode.
OK, thanks.
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  #8830  
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:40 PM
wietze wietze is offline
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Originally Posted by Cymraeg View Post
Psaw! That's nothing! We Cymraeg have been at war with the English for 1.500 years! Now THAT'S a grudge!
I thought it was just for sports & the fun of it
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  #8831  
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Astrodragon Astrodragon is offline
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Originally Posted by Paulo the Limey View Post
Ah, so the Japanese are falling into the trap of seeing exactly what they expected, and nothing else. It isn't clear which Task Force they've spotted, but whichever one it is is in for a world of hurt when the IJN strike arrives.
Which is a very common to mistake to make in war, although it must be admitted the Japanese were masters of the art...
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  #8832  
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:30 PM
Ash's Boomstick Ash's Boomstick is offline
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Originally Posted by Cymraeg View Post
Psaw! That's nothing! We Cymraeg have been at war with the English for 1,500 years! Now THAT'S a grudge!

I could make a response including Sheep, bad food and incomprehensible languages but where's the fun in that... its the fact you sicced Vinnie Jones on the world you need to be punished for.
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  #8833  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Hyperion Hyperion is offline
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Originally Posted by Obfuscated View Post
Woops . Always thought he was at sea.
That was a major advantage Nimitz had over Yamamoto in OTL. As Yamamoto was out with the fleet, he was burdened with the issue of the various Japanese fleet units operating under radio silence, and so couldn't communicate with any of his subordinate commanders, Kondo, Nagumo, Yamaguchi, etc.

Nimitz, being safe on Oahu, could communicate with Fletcher, Spruance, and later Fitch pretty much at will.
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  #8834  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:11 AM
Hyperion Hyperion is offline
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Originally Posted by usertron2020 View Post
So many of those air crews were on their first combat missions.
Well at least the Enterprise has squadrons now that have sunk carriers before.

Now everyone else will try to top her.
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  #8835  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:18 AM
Dathi THorfinnsson Dathi THorfinnsson is offline
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Originally Posted by usertron2020 View Post
2) There is no word "understanded", though I acknowledge that slang users employ it from time to time. The word is "understood".

usertron2020 in Vocabulary Cat Nazi Mode.
Except there is, or at least was. I think it was the prayer book, not the kjv, but the phrase used was "tongue not understanded of the people". Like Shakespeare used "digged" where we would use dug.

Edit. Its in the 39 articles in the Book of Common Prayer.
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Last edited by Dathi THorfinnsson; September 18th, 2012 at 12:34 AM.. Reason: also, corrected the quote
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  #8836  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:26 AM
Julius Vogel Julius Vogel is offline
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Originally Posted by abc123 View Post
I raise the stakes with:


That actually looks good. I blame mixing sake and coffee for my impaired judgement
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  #8837  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:26 AM
Hyperion Hyperion is offline
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So will Force Z be close enough to the US fleet to be able to send fighters to help cover them if need be? Or are they still too far to the south at the moment.

Out of 348 aircraft Nagumo started off with, he's lost 24, depending on how good the Midway based AA defenses where, I could see easily another dozen or two dozen various aircraft being damaged to the point that they might have to be written off.
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  #8838  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:32 AM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson View Post
Except there is, or at least was. I think it was the prayer book, not the kjv, but the phrase used was "language understanded of the peoples". Like Shakespeare used "digged" where we would use dug.
And if I wanted everybody to silently chuckle while abc123 unknowingly spoke in a Shakespearean dialect in the Year 2012 I would have remained silent as well.
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  #8839  
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:49 AM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
So will Force Z be close enough to the US fleet to be able to send fighters to help cover them if need be? Or are they still too far to the south at the moment.

Out of 348 aircraft Nagumo started off with, he's lost 24, depending on how good the Midway based AA defenses were, I could see easily another dozen or two dozen various aircraft being damaged to the point that they might have to be written off.(1)
I doubt that even Force Z, even were it close enough, could handle co-ordinating a fighter force with defending the task forces of another navy of whose carrier forces it has never worked with. Worse yet, American naval AA guns were manned by green E-1 seamen and commanded by freshly minted ensigns. At this point in the war they had serious problems trying to keep from shooting down their OWN aircraft, or aircraft from USN carriers other than their own. I can only imagine with horror the results of these kids opening up on unfamiliar fighters.

While USN CAPs were very good at IFF, I don't know how they'd mix with the British. OTL, even in 1945, the British Pacific Fleet was sent on its own to protect the southern approaches of Okinawa from attacks coming from Formosa. Even with all the experience gained in three-and-a-half years of war, it was thought too dangerous to mix the two navies in combat.

1) I'd have to say that you are right about IJN aircraft damage. Midway AA defenses were VERY heavy, if inaccurate. Since much of the Midway strike was destroyed when the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu were hit, we can never have an accounting of the damage done to those planes. But whatever they were, they have to be proportionally worse ITTL, as this strike was pressed with sufficient force to crater the runway. OTL the AA fire was so heavy at the airstrip that no attack was seriously pressed, and one joyriding Zero pilot trying to fly upside down at low altitude down the length of the runway got cut down halfway for his foolish efforts.
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  #8840  
Old September 18th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Hyperion Hyperion is offline
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Would a strike by Nagumo's pilots against the US or British carriers pass near enough to Midway for the island to see the Japanese on radar?

If so, given that the island garrison still has fighter coverage available ITTL, might they try to intercept and engage the Japanese, either thinking it's a second attack on Midway itself, or trying to weaken them before they reach the US carriers.
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