The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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According to the internet FN had modified the original Browning to give 1,000 rpm but there only seems to be solid AP and ball ammunition available in 13.2 no HE or Incendiary though that shouldnt be a problem to develop.
There was another 0.5 round available the Vickers 12.7 x 120mm semi rimmed export model with a velocity of 3,040 fps.
The Japanese built Browning copies firing the Vickers round and there guns were smaller and a fair bit lighter (about 15 pounds lighter iirc) than the M2 Browning with rates of fire of about 900rpm v the M2 of about 750rpm. The Vickers round was also lighter 35g v 42g but its still much better than any rifle calibre bullet.
It wasnt a masively powerful round but the Germans seemed to have got on fine with the MG131 firing a 13x64 round with a similar performance to the Vickers.
The Vickers would seem to be the best bet as it's in use as a naval AA weapon. Is there any possibility of the 15mm Besa being adaptable for aircraft in the period?
I'd be interested in seeing what if anything these changes the Royal Navy makes does to affect the plans of other navies both near and far. IIRC the Graf Zeppelin was something like 75-80% finished before it was finally scrapped, if they expand their carrier forces more than in our timeline might we at least see it completed? Although that still leaves suitable aircraft and trained pilots to find, which considering the relations of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe concerning naval aviation often made the RN-RAF arguments look like unanimity of action is a serious question.
If the Royal Navy is more worried about AA then off the top of my head, bearing in mind that I'm no expert, they're probably going to introduce the 20mm Oerlikons earlier since people will be more likely to listen to Mountbatten in this timeline. We could also see the earlier adoption of the Bofors 40mm cannon, in its twin-barrelled water-cooled configuration as well I'd think.
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Yes, there will be a reaction - not so much on carriers, there were other reasons for who built how many, but some carrier planes will change
Ideally you'd go with the Belgian or Browning .5 but, even with the RN in control of its own budget there are limitations and if
a .5 calibre gun is to be adopted then Vickers makes the best logistical sense.
a .5 calibre gun is to be adopted then Vickers makes the best logistical sense.
On the subject of other navies reaction to what the FAA is doing, they will be quite small for some time.
After all, to observers eyes not much has changed yet. The Navy and RAF have had a big fight. Well, that sort of thing goes on in other militaries too, and all it means is someone else controls the navy planes.
The RN has managed to get the new carrier a year early and to a better spec than in OTL, but that isnt known, of course. In fact the RN carrier building program is restrained compared to, say, the USA, so its hardly going to cause much comment.
The internal reorganisation and improvements arent really obviously threatening anyone.
There will be other butterflies caused, but again, they wont be very obvious for a while, and may well get missed or at least minimised when the big war scare takes off in a few years.
The biggest change is in aircraft; the Stringbag is as OTL. A dive bomber and fighter will cause reaction when they come into service (and the RN will be pushing for that, especialy when the Luftwaffe is announced), but they have to be non-paper planes, and the RN isnt going to reveal their full performance. On paper, they wont look much different from US designs in progress at the time, and inferior to planes like the Me109.
On the subject of AA; its really too late to do much to improve the HA fire, that should have been started a few years ago, and in any case there probably isnt the money. The FAA will be pushing the risk assessment, certainly as soon as they look at whet their planes will do to a RN AA defence, but in OTL the RN didn about as much as they could regarding HA defence. Any changes will have to come in close in guns, pushed by the much greater risk assesment of the dive bomber, and that is much quicker to implement. The most likely changes are more pressure to get the 20mm and bofors 40mm under license and in production, and the other thing that wasnt done which is to do an improvement assesment and program on the 2pdr pop-pom. Which wasnt a terrible system, but was getting old by 1939, and an inprovement and modernisation would have reaped big rewards. The RN did have the heaviest AA fits in the world in 1939, and it will be improved.
After all, to observers eyes not much has changed yet. The Navy and RAF have had a big fight. Well, that sort of thing goes on in other militaries too, and all it means is someone else controls the navy planes.
The RN has managed to get the new carrier a year early and to a better spec than in OTL, but that isnt known, of course. In fact the RN carrier building program is restrained compared to, say, the USA, so its hardly going to cause much comment.
The internal reorganisation and improvements arent really obviously threatening anyone.
There will be other butterflies caused, but again, they wont be very obvious for a while, and may well get missed or at least minimised when the big war scare takes off in a few years.
The biggest change is in aircraft; the Stringbag is as OTL. A dive bomber and fighter will cause reaction when they come into service (and the RN will be pushing for that, especialy when the Luftwaffe is announced), but they have to be non-paper planes, and the RN isnt going to reveal their full performance. On paper, they wont look much different from US designs in progress at the time, and inferior to planes like the Me109.
On the subject of AA; its really too late to do much to improve the HA fire, that should have been started a few years ago, and in any case there probably isnt the money. The FAA will be pushing the risk assessment, certainly as soon as they look at whet their planes will do to a RN AA defence, but in OTL the RN didn about as much as they could regarding HA defence. Any changes will have to come in close in guns, pushed by the much greater risk assesment of the dive bomber, and that is much quicker to implement. The most likely changes are more pressure to get the 20mm and bofors 40mm under license and in production, and the other thing that wasnt done which is to do an improvement assesment and program on the 2pdr pop-pom. Which wasnt a terrible system, but was getting old by 1939, and an inprovement and modernisation would have reaped big rewards. The RN did have the heaviest AA fits in the world in 1939, and it will be improved.
Thats nice, I will definately pinch that
The RN will be going for the larger cockpit (the second one), as they will be expecting the plane to have a secondary recon capability (remember, they still expect to have a very limited supply of planes, so some degree of multifunction will be expected), and that cockpit looks better suited to that use over water.
Just Leo said:
Why is it called an "American style" cockpit werent there a lot of similar designs about in Britain, Germany and Japan.
"some discussions were held with the Bristol company, the main supplier of rotary engines in the country"
I think you mean Radial engines not Rotary engines. A Rotary engine is one such as wasused in WWI in the Sopwith Camelwhere the engine and propeller are solidly connected and the engine spins with the propeller. A Radial is one such as the P&W R2800 or the Bristol Hercules or Pegasas where the engine is fixed and drives the propeller thru a driveshaft and gearbox.
Maybe in the thirties the RN/FAA can interest Martin-Baker in developing an MB-2 derivitive using a Radial engine and stressed for carrier use and later an MB-3 derivitive for Naval use. Given the reliance on RAF business by Hawker and Supermarine it would be MBs best chance at getting their fighter designs adopted
I think you mean Radial engines not Rotary engines. A Rotary engine is one such as wasused in WWI in the Sopwith Camelwhere the engine and propeller are solidly connected and the engine spins with the propeller. A Radial is one such as the P&W R2800 or the Bristol Hercules or Pegasas where the engine is fixed and drives the propeller thru a driveshaft and gearbox.
Maybe in the thirties the RN/FAA can interest Martin-Baker in developing an MB-2 derivitive using a Radial engine and stressed for carrier use and later an MB-3 derivitive for Naval use. Given the reliance on RAF business by Hawker and Supermarine it would be MBs best chance at getting their fighter designs adopted
Any aircraft with a rotary engine with the HP and torque of a mid 30s engine is an accident in the making.
I think it comes with a Coca-cola machine fitted....
In the UK version it has a tea kettle.
Pah! sorry, quite correct, its a typo (I hate Word. A lot...)
The main aircraft producers for the RN are likely to be Fairy, Gloster, to a certain extent Bristol and Hawker (who were big enough to handle multiple planes). Martin-baker will certainly be asked to quote, but I'm not sure if their early designs would be up to it. Blackburn produced a lot of rubbish (the only good plane they ever built was the Buccaneer....). De Havilland arent likely to be used as their wooden designs are thought unsuitable for use in a marine environment.
The RN are going to be rather more demanding than the RAF. They know what they need, and they have limited numbers to play with - also they wont be buying anything that flies and can carry a bomb just because its called a bomber.
Any aircraft with a rotary engine with the HP and torque of a mid 30s engine is an accident in the making.
Exactly. I've heard an annecdote about a Typhoon Pilot who a couple of years ago was flying a Camel, landed and puked his guts out because 'it kept trying to kill me with Torque'.
Exactly!!
You see, thats the REAL reason the RAF wanted 2 man fighter crews, one was making the tea....
Bloody crabs....
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