Go Back   Alternate History Discussion Board > Discussion > Alternate History Discussion: After 1900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 08:55 PM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
Oriental Orientalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Homeline
Posts: 1000 or more
Challenge: more conflict between Monarchism and Fascism

The fascists, despite being ultra-reactionary, largely despised the aristocratic and royalist classes they replaced, seeing as they failed their nations in WWI. How could there have been a more pro-monarchist, pro-Ancien Regime movement in Germany and other nations against rising fascist powers?
__________________
GIW: The Ministry- The career of a Red.

Smoke and Daggers- A ten-sided cold war
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 09:07 PM
azander12 azander12 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: McGill Ghetto Commune
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk View Post
The fascists, despite being ultra-reactionary, largely despised the aristocratic and royalist classes they replaced, seeing as they failed their nations in WWI. How could there have been a more pro-monarchist, pro-Ancien Regime movement in Germany and other nations against rising fascist powers?
Have the fascists focus more on the left-wing side of their heritage. For example, if the Nazis had embraced the socialist part of National Socialism more, and the reactionary part less, the German military aristocracy would have been unlikely to have been so accommodating to them. Same with National Syndicalism in Italy.
__________________
Fear Not The Revolution, Habibi: "If I am not for myself, who is?"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 09:57 PM
Wolfpaw Wolfpaw is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: God Hates Flags
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by azander12 View Post
Have the fascists focus more on the left-wing side of their heritage. For example, if the Nazis had embraced the socialist part of National Socialism more, and the reactionary part less, the German military aristocracy would have been unlikely to have been so accommodating to them. Same with National Syndicalism in Italy.
Pretty much this. Get the Strassers or street brawlers like Röhm in power and there will be far less accommodation with the Junkers and the industrial cartel owners.

Same goes for Mussolini, who was under a great deal of pressure from the regional ras to take a more syndicalist line, which he halfheartedly attempted for all of two years before reverting control to Establishment elites and chiefs loyal to him personally.

The Italian Fascists actually became extremely anti-monarchist and anti-aristocrat after Mussolini was kicked out since now the Italian Establishment was fair game.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 10:55 PM
Uriel Uriel is offline
undead young cold warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 1000 or more
IMO the relations between monarchist-reactionary groups and fascists depended on the position the reactionaries were in.

Where they were in power and all was fine or at least bearable from their point of view, there they did try to keep the fascists from power. This happend for example in Romenia or Austria.

On the other hand, where the reactionaries/monarchists were desperate, enraged, and unable to change the situation on their own they tended to ally with the fascists: Germany, France, Spain

Italy is a case of its own, where Mussollini took power in an phase of confusion, on an rather bonapartist (something for everyone) agenda.
__________________
Quote:
I don’t want the past back. I just think we chose the wrong future.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 11:41 PM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
Oriental Orientalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Homeline
Posts: 1000 or more
I have to say considering alternate fates for Austria(-Hungary) in the WWII era was the basis for this thread. So did the Austrian monarchy detest Austrofascism? Or did they detest Austrian National Socialism? Because I'm still interested in a Dollfuss vs. Hitler scenarion, atop the surviving Austria-Hungary vs. Hitler scenario.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/ships_of_the_empire.php
http://www.avalanchepress.com/Imperial_Planes.php
http://www.avalanchepress.com/imperial_preview.php
http://www.avalanchepress.com/imperial_preview2.php
http://www.avalanchepress.com/Histor...php?mode=print
__________________
GIW: The Ministry- The career of a Red.

Smoke and Daggers- A ten-sided cold war

Last edited by Strategos' Risk; September 2nd, 2011 at 11:51 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:23 AM
wolf_brother wolf_brother is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTC−6
Posts: 1000 or more
The problem here is that fascists work with traditional conservatives against both individual liberalism and class-based socialism. So if you want some sort of Monarchist vs Fascist conflict you'll either need to a) turn the monarchy towards either liberalism or socialism, or b) remove monarchy as the traditional stronghold of conservatives. The first I could see done in say, Britain, and the second in a Germany where the Junkers hold less power than they did IOTL after the Great War. Outside of Europe a Brazil where the monarchy isn't toppled, which was in and of itself a fairly random and quasi-ASB event even IOTL, could see both a liberal monarch and conservatives who rally around capitalist barons of industry.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:51 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
Oriental Orientalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Homeline
Posts: 1000 or more
Didn't Hitler and the Nazis hate royals, though?
__________________
GIW: The Ministry- The career of a Red.

Smoke and Daggers- A ten-sided cold war
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:59 AM
wolf_brother wolf_brother is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTC−6
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk View Post
Didn't Hitler and the Nazis hate royals, though?
That's debatable, considering how much the Nazis worked with the Junkers and even the deposed Hohenzollerns up to, and even after, assuming complete control.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:59 AM
John Fredrick Parker John Fredrick Parker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1000 or more
This probably isn't close to what you're looking for, but -- I've been conceiving of a failed ARW-TL where progress in the 19th Century* is split bw Social Monarchism ("social harmony through social hierarchy") and Bourgeoius Republicanism (rule by the fit citizen class), leading to a 20th Century synthesis that actually looks a lot like OTL Fascism...

Just thought I'd mention it.

*OTL, it was bw Liberalism and Socialism
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 04:23 AM
Spengler Spengler is offline
Free AG!
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Minnesota in the Place of Mayo
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk View Post
Didn't Hitler and the Nazis hate royals, though?
Not really. The nazis really only had it in for royal who spoke out against them.
__________________
The greatest argument for the implementation of social darwinism is the existence of social darwinists.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 05:11 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
Oriental Orientalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Homeline
Posts: 1000 or more
Apocryphal:

Quote:
This is history told by a masseur who sometimes snooped. The late Heinrich Himmler believed that his frequent, gnawing stomach pains could be relieved by massage. He went to a masseur named Felix Kersten, who now, through Himmler's thoughts-while-being-rubbed, tells what the peace might have been had Germany won.

Claiming to have been always firmly anti-Nazi, Dr. Kersten is a Finnish citizen who now lives and practices in Sweden. He declares that he treated Himmler (also Ribbentrop, Hess, Ley, et al.) simply to protect his own family. He was also instrumental, he says, in sending thousands of victims of German concentration camps to safety into Switzerland and Sweden. Documents reproduced in his Memoirs, and an introduction by Biographer Konrad (Hitler) Heiden, indicate that his claims are true. So also may be his reports of tall Nazi ambitions.

Samples:

¶ All the aristocrats in Europe were to be hanged. German princes & princesses would lead the way at a mass execution held in front of Berlin's Imperial Palace. The charges: sexual perversion, espionage, high treason.
The other plans are quite amusing to check out as well, in that they seem tabloidesque and probably did not happen.
__________________
GIW: The Ministry- The career of a Red.

Smoke and Daggers- A ten-sided cold war
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.