Can Germany reacquire any pre-Versailles territory peacefully?

Erick · Feb 25, 2011

Let's say for arguments sake, Hitler does not go down the road of joining Austria and Czechoslovakia into the German Reich. Was it possible to recover any of the territories lost in 1919, particularly those Poland annexed, without it ending in full-out war with the other big three powers in Europe. Let's assume Hitler's own aspirations are put to the side, is there any way for this to work?

SlideAway · Feb 25, 2011

Danzig would probably have been allowed to join. I doubt it for the Polish Corridor. Yes, it was a cross-partisan demand in Germany, but Poland would never agree to it willingly and I suspect at least France would opt for war to block it. (Britain I'm less sure about, given the OTL popularity of appeasement.)

yourworstnightmare · Feb 25, 2011

Saarland, maybe Dazig. That's all. Anschluss with Austria may have been permitted at some point, but Austria wasn't a part of Germany before anyways.

Kome · Feb 25, 2011

It would probably be easy to recover Memel.

A-L is no, just no.

Any chance of Britain being nice and giving control of the mandates over to Germany? Probably not. But maybe if they wait until the 60's and play nice? Yeah probably not going to happen.

yourworstnightmare · Feb 25, 2011

Decolonization would probably have started in the 60s anyways, and the A and B Mandates would probably be first on the list of areas to gain independence.

Typo · Feb 25, 2011

A/L is gone, even the Germans themselves didn't want it back that much.

Everything else is game frankly.

pompejus · Feb 25, 2011

Personaly I think that the Germans could have gotten Eupen-Malmedy if they played their cards right. Besides that, I guess only Danzig.

Meko · Feb 25, 2011

Without Prague/1939 you're not going to have a British gaurentee to Poland. Neither France nor Britain is going to go to war over West Prussia and Danzig without that.

Hörnla · Feb 25, 2011

pompejus said:
Personaly I think that the Germans could have gotten Eupen-Malmedy if they played their cards right. Besides that, I guess only Danzig.

Belgium was ready to sell Eupen-Malmedy back in the mid-20s, but France intervened. Negotiations were already underway.

Memel returned with a little pressure OTL as well, so yes.

Danzig is imaginable, maybe as part of an "East-Locarno" if Germany officially gives up any other claims forever...

Nord-Schleswig is of nobody's interest. Not even Hitler annexed it.

Anything lost to Poland resp. France: not without war. In fact, I can hardly see a German-Polish war not happening even if the Weimar Republic survives.

Mulder · Feb 25, 2011

Hörnla said:
Belgium was ready to sell Eupen-Malmedy back in the mid-20s, but France intervened. Negotiations were already underway.

Memel returned with a little pressure OTL as well, so yes.

Danzig is imaginable, maybe as part of an "East-Locarno" if Germany officially gives up any other claims forever...

Nord-Schleswig is of nobody's interest. Not even Hitler annexed it.

Anything lost to Poland resp. France: not without war. In fact, I can hardly see a German-Polish war not happening even if the Weimar Republic survives.

I guess that's about right. And a German-Polish war would be likely even if the SPD got to rule with an absolute majority. But in a no-WWII timeline I think the possibility that Eupen-Malmedy, Memel, Danzig (and Austria) will be German by 2000 is close to 100%.

Wendell · Feb 25, 2011

Is there a source relating to the return of Eupen-Malmedy to Germany after either world war?

pompejus · Feb 25, 2011

Wendell said:
Is there a source relating to the return of Eupen-Malmedy to Germany after either world war?

Wikipedia sais this:

Wikipedia said:
In 1925, the area around Eupen, Malmedy, and Sankt Vith, together with the former Neutral Moresnet (Kelmis) was finally included in the Belgian state. However, in 1926 Belgium and the Weimar Republic conducted secret negotiations which would have led to the return of the East Cantons to Germany in return for 200 million gold marks - but the fury of the French Government on hearing about the plan led to the break-up of the talks.

But besides wikipedia I can't find any other recources, except a couple who use (almost) the exact same words as the wikipedia article (including a Dutch source). So I can't be sure who used who as a source. Still it seems a likely thing to happen. Why would the Belgians want to include a third language in their country?

Wendell · Feb 25, 2011

pompejus said:
Wikipedia sais this:

But besides wikipedia I can't find any other recources, except a couple who use (almost) the exact same words as the wikipedia article (including a Dutch source). So I can't be sure what whoa used who as a source. Still it seems a likely thing to happen. Why would the Belgians want to include a third language in their country?

I agree, but the language issues were not as prominent from what I understand until after World War II.

yourworstnightmare · Feb 25, 2011

Wendell said:
I agree, but the language issues were not as prominent from what I understand until after World War II.

Tell that to crazy Flemish nationalists.

Wendell · Feb 25, 2011

I like the idea of the Belgian border reverting to how it was before the war (though with Moresnet going German too), but I'm not sure that can be used to revert the rise of the Nazis long term, although that would certainly be nice if it did.

Xgentis · Feb 25, 2011

pompejus said:
Wikipedia sais this:

But besides wikipedia I can't find any other recources, except a couple who use (almost) the exact same words as the wikipedia article (including a Dutch source). So I can't be sure who used who as a source. Still it seems a likely thing to happen. Why would the Belgians want to include a third language in their country?

Don't trust wikipedia.

Stateless · Feb 25, 2011

pompejus said:
But besides wikipedia I can't find any other recources, except a couple who use (almost) the exact same words as the wikipedia article (including a Dutch source). So I can't be sure who used who as a source. Still it seems a likely thing to happen. Why would the Belgians want to include a third language in their country?

In Stresemann and the revision of Versailles: a fight for reason Henry L. Bretton says:

Concerning Eupen-Malmédy, Stresemann was just as unsuccessful as in the case of the Saar. He attempted to achieve his objectives by direct negotiation with Belgium, only to discover that the remaining status quo powers would not permit a breach of their front by bilateral negotiations and arrangements.

"the case of the Saar" refers to how Stresemann failed to move forward the date of the Saarland being returned to German control. So it looks like it did happen.

Wendell · Feb 25, 2011

stateless_englishman said:
In Stresemann and the revision of Versailles: a fight for reason Henry L. Bretton says:

"the case of the Saar" refers to how Stresemann failed to move forward the date of the Saarland being returned to German control. So it looks like it did happen.

So, on that passage, it seems that force of arms was the only way for Germany to redress its grievances.

Erick · Feb 25, 2011

If assuming there is no annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia, how much could they get from Poland both by war and just through negotiation, or could a war with Poland in this case only escalate into war with France and Britain. I would imagine they could get Danzig in a settlement, how about the Polish Corridor? It seems Britain would not go to war over it, and doubtfully France. Could enough pressure be brought on Poland for them to go along with it?

Wendell · Feb 25, 2011

Erick said:
If assuming there is no annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia, how much could they get from Poland both by war and just through negotiation, or could a war with Poland in this case only escalate into war with France and Britain. I would imagine they could get Danzig in a settlement, how about the Polish Corridor? It seems Britain would not go to war over it, and doubtfully France. Could enough pressure be brought on Poland for them to go along with it?

Poland will not give up more than Danzif without war, and they won't even give up Danzig unless pressured by other powers.