Brazilian Papal States

After the fall of the larger portion of the papal states in 1870, could the pope flee to another country and potentialy set up a new papal state? I would assume the countries would have high amounts of Catholics so Mexio, Brazil, Argentina, America, and the Phillipines would be friendly towards the pope to say the least. Would the pope return to italy after making his new papal state? Would any state give up land to the Pope?

My main question is, where will they be located if possible
Bonus Points if a map is included.

Spain maybe, in the 1870s was its first Civil War, so maybe hard-core Catholics cutting a place for the Holy Father.

Why not Malta?

I don't think the British would see the joke as amusing

There is certainly a chance that the pope leaves Rome, but I don't see him going to Americas. So it's a choice among Spain (most likely), France (maybe if there is a stronger reaction to the Commune which ends up into a restoration of a Bourbon king) or Austria.

Who where thinks that an Austrian papal enclave would lead to the Papacy becoming even more conservative?

yeah, the pope would never leave europe. that would likely piss european catholics so much, it would do more bad than good.

there might be a second avignon papacy, that would be interesting.

spain is a possibility with what 95% catholic. maybe more

hapsburg austria... maaaaaaybe.

ireland, sadly no.

switzerland is a slight possibility, he's already got the swiss guard.

malta... was malta at this point still the home to the knights of st. john, or was that gone? if the knights were still there, i could definitely see the papacy move there.

portugal seems random to me, as does belgium.

i think that covers all the predominantly catholic european nations of the day

Apart from the not making the Eurocatholics panties in a knot going to the America's as has been mentioned their's no way in hell the Papacy would move to America, especially since America is (and likely was more so then) majority Portestant and their's a history of not liking Catholics.

Iori said:

Apart from the not making the Eurocatholics panties in a knot going to the America's as has been mentioned their's no way in hell the Papacy would move to America, especially since America is (and likely was more so then) majority Portestant and their's a history of not liking Catholics.

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That's not actually true. The majority of America (meaning the continent, not the USA) is Catholic, and it was so back in the day as well. Only the US and Canada isn't majority Catholic and they don't account for that much of the total population of the Americas.

charl said:

That's not actually true. The majority of America (meaning the continent, not the USA) is Catholic, and it was so back in the day as well. Only the US and Canada isn't majority Catholic and they don't account for that much of the total population of the Americas.

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I think Iori was disputing the OP's listing of "America" right after Argentina in a list of possibilities. I agree with em on that: especially in the nineteenth century, there'd be a lot of outcry by estadounidenses against a Papal relocation there.

Codae said:

I think Iori was disputing the OP's listing of "America" right after Argentina in a list of possibilities. I agree with em on that: especially in the nineteenth century, there'd be a lot of outcry by estadounidenses against a Papal relocation there.

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Ah. Well, obviously the US is out of the question. Venezuela or some other staunchly Catholic country in this period might not be, but then I think the European alternatives are much more likely.

IOTL France jumped in to help protect the Papal State from being overrun by the new Italian kingdom. A new Avignon might just be the best alternative.

charl said:

Ah. Well, obviously the US is out of the question. Venezuela or some other staunchly Catholic country in this period might not be, but then I think the European alternatives are much more likely.

IOTL France jumped in to help protect the Papal State from being overrun by the new Italian kingdom. A new Avignon might just be the best alternative.

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At the same time though, this is late 1800s France we're talking about. If they can gain an upperhand somewhere by guaranteeing the Pope will live there, I imagine they'll take it. With Rome out of the question, unfortunately, they have their biggest opportunity cut off. I could see them putting the Pope up in Switzerland, maybe a German part of Switzerland.

charl said:

Only the US and Canada isn't majority Catholic and they don't account for that much of the total population of the Americas.

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The US and Canada account for over 1/3 of the total population of the Americas...

LylyCSM2 said:

I could see them putting the Pope up in Switzerland, maybe a German part of Switzerland.

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With the only exceptions of UK (self-explanatory) and Germany (kulturkampf), I cannot really imagine a worse or more controversial place to relocate the Pope

Russia
The Tsar gives the Pope some useless big chunk of Siberia or some other random cold place in exchange for appeasing the Poles

Liechtenstein and Andorra were seriously proposed IOTL during Pius IX's emo phase ("prisoner of the Vatican woe is me" ).

Quebec? Perhaps Saint Pierre and Miquelon? Elba? The Spanish possessions in the Carribbean are tempting. Take Puerto Rico, add on the Danish Indies to be paid for by donations, economic concessions, and using Danish ships for transporting everything needed over there. Have the Walloons meddle a bit to get the Dutch to trade away their Indies for a bit of Limberg or something. The French can cancel out most of their debt of looting cathedrals of metal and land deads by giving up some of their islands. The British might give one up as well, as a place to send their Irish. We should also keep in mind that this Pope had the ability to fight back, but chose not to. And if the Italians turned on the Pope, then it would look pretty badly for European Christendom, anyways. Might as well have everyone move to Cracow, Sardinia, or Cyrencia. I personally would think that he could try for the completely unrealistic route of moving to Paraguay or Uruaguay, to sanctify the buffer zones of sorts. Though bringing up the lost Jesuist missions might not be a good idea. Still, the thought of many thousands of white Italians, Germans, and such that the Pope might bring in his train would be tempting for them. Or threat. It's a shame that Emperor Pedro II died the previous year. He could have been very useful.

LordKalvan said:

With the only exceptions of UK (self-explanatory) and Germany (kulturkampf), I cannot really imagine a worse or more controversial place to relocate the Pope

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Carthage, Jerusalem, Athens, I could go on. Addis Abada, I could go on. If he went to Gao, though, he could get some nice pomp going amongst the locals. Indian festivals remind me greatly of Latin American ones, anyways.

One good way to remove the Papacy from Rome, which both Franciscus Caesar "Italy, a destiny fulfilled" TL and mine "A different 1866" TL explore, is to have a stronger Italy win a victory as decisive in 1866 as the one of Prussia.

As a consequence, war between France and the Prussian-Italian alliance occurs in 1867-68 over Luxemburg and Rome. The Pope flees Rome and sets up shop in Avignon again, under French protection. The First Ecumenic Council occurs and a Second Western Schism occurs in the Cartholic Church. With the support of the German and Italian governments and nationalisms, the Old Catholics (which soon mold to resemble, and fuse with, the Episcopal Church) seize the allegiance of Germany and Italy, and Rome is lost for good to the Papacy.

The most likely outcome ("AD1866" takes this route) is that after the Commune convulsions, a reactionary-protofascist Bourbon monarchy is restored in France, and it supports a Carlist takeover in Spain during the Third Carlist War to establish a French-Spanish Ausgleich, and the Pope remains in Avignon, a pampered guest and propaganda token for the Bourbon regime.

However, if a Bourbon takeover is somehow prevented in France and Spain, and both countries remain liberla, the Pope may indeed relocate to Brazil instead, the next most natural conservative Catholic stronghold.

The OTL french proposal was actually Andorra, not "Avignon 2.0" - which wouldn't fly with large parts of the population and parliament unless it basically swapped the pope from "prisoner in Rome" to "prisoner in Avignon"

archaeogeek said:

The OTL french proposal was actually Andorra, not "Avignon 2.0" - which wouldn't fly with large parts of the population and parliament unless it basically swapped the pope from "prisoner in Rome" to "prisoner in Avignon"

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He would be able to try playing France and Spain off of each other. Plus the Catlans, Basques, and Occitanians(?) could try wooing him for support.