Brazilian Papal States

[RyuDrago]

Because before Sedan France was the papal protector, and after the Republic needed to maintain strong links with the Catholic Church because of anti-German/Protestant propaganda, the most suitable choose for a fleeing Pious IX is surely France and Avignon.

Spain could be the reasonable second chance, but Pious IX could accept to set in a country where in that moment he was a Savoia (Amedeo I) on the throne? Otherwise, the Pope could try to use his influence to put a Carlist on charge in the kingdom...

I see Austria-Hungary more hardly as third chance, because the Pope could have the fear to expose himself and his successors over a highly ingerence from the Hasburgs emperors...

Anyway i can see a more active Papal diplomacy which may leads towards a catholic alliance between France, Austria-Hungary and Spain againist Germany and Italy; these two countries for response decided to searching an alliance with Britain, which accepted. Russia aligned towards France and Ottoman Empire towards Germany, while USA remained neutral.

The ponder-keg of Europe in this possible TL could be only Switzerland, extremely strategical for both the alliances (it could give direct land connession between Germany and Italy, and between Austria and France); also, Switzerland is a mixture of Catholic and Protestant landers... maybe a new Swiss civil war which leads to WWI?

 

[Eurofed]

The OTL french proposal was actually Andorra, not "Avignon 2.0" - which wouldn't fly with large parts of the population and parliament unless it basically swapped the pope from "prisoner in Rome" to "prisoner in Avignon"

Not if you go with the scenario I proposed. A reactionary Bourbon regime may actually restore Papal sovreignty over Avignon.

 

[archaeogeek]

Not if you go with the scenario I proposed. A reactionary Bourbon regime may actually restore Papal sovreignty over Avignon.

A reactionary Bourbon regime would have its head on a pike in the late 19th century.

 

[charl]

The US and Canada account for over 1/3 of the total population of the Americas...

And that's an impressive number to be sure, but it's not the majority and furthermore that wouldn't be true in this period as the USA which accounts for the majority of that number would be significantly less populated.

Furthermore Canada is 40% Catholic or something like that. The protestants are only a majority by a small margin.

 

[Eurofed]

Because before Sedan France was the papal protector, and after the Republic needed to maintain strong links with the Catholic Church because of anti-German/Protestant propaganda, the most suitable choose for a fleeing Pious IX is surely France and Avignon.

Spain could be the reasonable second chance, but Pious IX could accept to set in a country where in that moment he was a Savoia (Amedeo I) on the throne? Otherwise, the Pope could try to use his influence to put a Carlist on charge in the kingdom...

And luckily enough, the Legitimist heir to the throne of France after the Count of Chambord is also the Carlist pretendent to the throne of Spain. If the Pope can convince Henry to accept the tricolor for the "good of the Church", the Bourbon monarchy can be restored in France, and France can sponsor a Carlist victory in Spain, leading to a French-Spanish personal union. Of course, Germany and Italy are going to support their own candidate (a Hohenzollern or Savoia are both quite likely) on the throne of Spain. Nonetheless, Britain may end up supporting a French-Spanish union as a counterbalance to the German-Italian Axis.

Anyway i can see a more active Papal diplomacy which may leads towards a catholic alliance between France, Austria-Hungary and Spain againist Germany and Italy; these two countries for response decided to searching an alliance with Britain, which accepted. Russia aligned towards France and Ottoman Empire towards Germany, while USA remained neutral.

Indeed, that's a quite likely alliance setup. Again, if the Papacy sets itself up as the sponsor of a Franco-Spanish alliance, Bismarck and the liberal Italian government, as well as German and Italian nationalism, are going to support the Old Catholics, which may easily end up in control of Germany and Italy. Europe may end up split between Old Catholic-Anglican and liberal Anglo-German-Italian Triple Alliance and Papal Catholic-reactionary France-Spain in an Entente alliance with Tsarist Russia. Ideological kindle for the imperialistic clash of the rival alliance systems.

 

[Eurofed]

A reactionary Bourbon regime would have its head on a pike in the late 19th century.

Not if it becomes protofascist and mixes revanchist jingoism with reactionary Catholicism. Boulanger showed how it could be done in late 19th century France, and it would be something like Franco's Spain.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

There are lots of places the Pope COULD go if he so chose - but anywhere would put him under the thumb of the rulers of wherever he went. If he goes to France he will be (at least perceived as) a French puppet, etc.

This just INVITES a second schism, with someone else setting up an anti-pope - especially if that someone controls Rome.

The whole strength of the Papacy is as successor to Peter as Bishop of Rome, and if they aren't in Rome, that's going to heavily affect their power. Oh, not immediately perhaps, but over time.

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Ok everyone thanks for the input, it seems Spain, Switzerland and France seem to be everyones favorties. Now the question is, how much land do those countries give to the pope if any? where would it be?

 

[charl]

Ok everyone thanks for the input, it seems Spain, Switzerland and France seem to be everyones favorties. Now the question is, how much land do those countries give to the pope if any? where would it be?

Not much at all. A couple of city blocks, like the current Papal State, probably. France has a great place to put their pope in Avignon, since the pope used to live there for a period and it was papal property until Napoleon.

The others can put the pope more or less anywhere they please (except the protestant areas of Switzerland I guess). The Swiss could chose any of the traditional canton the Swiss guard comes from. Spain is probably not going to want the pope in Madrid, since that would put him perilously close to the actual seat of power in the country, but apart from that they could put him anywhere.

 

[Eurofed]

Not much at all. A couple of city blocks, like the current Papal State, probably. France has a great place to put their pope in Avignon, since the pope used to live there for a period and it was papal property until Napoleon.

And hence it has the prestige and precedent of tradition, something quite relevant for the Catholic Church. The Papal Palace in Avignon would need just a little refurbishing, but otherwise it is a perfect location.

Spain is probably not going to want the pope in Madrid, since that would put him perilously close to the actual seat of power in the country, but apart from that they could put him anywhere.

If the Pope goes to Spain, Santiago de Compostela seems the natural place for the Papal seat, the place has a lot of religious prestige.

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Not much at all. A couple of city blocks, like the current Papal State, probably. France has a great place to put their pope in Avignon, since the pope used to live there for a period and it was papal property until Napoleon.

The others can put the pope more or less anywhere they please (except the protestant areas of Switzerland I guess). The Swiss could chose any of the traditional canton the Swiss guard comes from. Spain is probably not going to want the pope in Madrid, since that would put him perilously close to the actual seat of power in the country, but apart from that they could put him anywhere.

So im assuming you want the pope to be far away from the center of power? Maybe Corsica for France and the Balerics for Spain? As for the Swiss im not sure

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

And hence it has the prestige and precedent of tradition, something quite relevant for the Catholic Church. The Papal Palace in Avignon would need just a little refurbishing, but otherwise it is a perfect location.

Would the Entire enclave of Comtat Venaissin be restored? or remnant of it?

 

[Eurofed]

Would the Entire enclave of Comtat Venaissin be restored? or remnant of it?

A Catholic-conservative French Third Republic would most likely just give a couple city blocks, all the city of Avignon on a stretch, a reactionary-protofascist Bourbon France-Spain Ausgleich may be more generous and restore part of the Comtat Venaissin enclave, or even all of it on a stetch.

 

[charl]

So im assuming you want the pope to be far away from the center of power? Maybe Corsica for France and the Balerics for Spain? As for the Swiss im not sure

Avignon is plenty far away from Paris, plus it's traditional and would be highly symbolic. For France it's more or less the only choice.

 

[archaeogeek]

Would the Entire enclave of Comtat Venaissin be restored? or remnant of it?

Not in the 19th century it wouldn't; the French never considered it IOTL and were rather touchy about the "national territory" - neither royal nor republican juridical tradition considered it possible for the french head of state to alienate land short of a defeat at war. Andorra fulfilled all the problems and on top of it was, with Liechtenstein, one of the OTL proposals before the italian government voted the Law of Guarantees.
As for Boulangism, for all its "populist appeal" it never managed to get more than 10% of the popular vote: a Boulangist coup would have ended messily and with Boulanger's fall: the man was no Franco.

 

[Niko Malaka]

So im assuming you want the pope to be far away from the center of power? Maybe Corsica for France and the Balerics for Spain? As for the Swiss im not sure

Actually, the Balearics were considered by the spanish government as possible residence for the Pope in 1849, before the intervention against the Roman Republic. Note that only as a residence, not as a papal territory. Like in France, no spanish government would give up a part of the national territory. But in 1870 the political situation in Spain was very different, and adopting the Pope only could cause more problems.

Andorra, however, as archaeogeek says, is a much better option. If the french have no problems, the spanish co-prince is the Bishop of Urgell, so it makes the things easier. On the other hand, it's too close to the Carlist strongholds in Catalonia, so it could end badly for the Pope. Once the Third Carlist War starts, the voices relating him with the rebellion, rightly or wrongly, would be numerous.

On the other hand, regarding the reactionnary France, even if the ASB's manage to get a stable reactionary France, imposing the Carlist candidate in Madrid would mean probably something from a very violent reaction from the liberal and republican sides to a Cantonal Revolution on steroids and a lot of trouble even to OTL standards.

 

[ImperialVienna]

Just some thoughts on a Papacy in the Dual Monarchy:

I find it incredibly unlikely that the Papacy would look to Austria-Hungary as their first choice as where to relocate. They likely would only ask for "asylum" if they were denied elsewhere. If for whatever reason they did decide to relocate to the Habsburg realms, I suspect they would be offered Salzburg by Franz Joseph. That said, and has been noted, the "Salzburg Papacy" would likely make the Avignon Papacy look independent of government influence. Franz Joseph was the last Catholic Monarch to exercise Jus exclusivae. He was willing to veto the election of a Pope in 1903, logically if the Papacy is in his backyard and under his thumb...

All that said, while moving to Austria would likely undermine the Church's credibility abroad, it might help to save the Habsburg state. The Papacy, along with the Monarchy, would serve as a much needed symbol of unity for many of the Habsburgs' peoples. Also having the Papacy in Austria would likely radically change the birth of the Christian Social movement. With the Popes as political proxies of Franz Joseph, there is no one to step in on behalf of Karl Lueger and legitimize his election(as Leo XIII did). If Lueger can be neutered and his Anti-Semitism with him, the Christian Social Party may be able to find some legitimation from the Monarchy and Aristocracy that the Liberals never really found.

Ahh but I have digressed and a discussion of late 19th century Austrian/Viennese politics this is not.

 

[TotrueTufaar]

The Italians only really started to dislike the Pope when he refused to lead them against the Austrians to capture Venetia-Lombardy-Alto Adige. Would this have any effect on his relations with the Austrians?

 

[RyuDrago]

We must also think how the Pope managed to escape from Rome; the only reasonable way is by sea after reaching a Latium port, almost sure Ostia, maybe through a boat on the Tiber near Castle S.Angelo. Then, reached Ostia, he boarded on a brigantine. The ship then must tracked a secure route for the Pope's sake: Austria is too difficult to reach because it is too long and it's unsafe docking in other Italian docks (risk for the Pope to be arrested), so the only logical choice is to reach the more near friendly haven which is Corsica. Now, the Pope could decide to remain here (also because both France and Spain in these period were not highly unstable), or later approached Provence ports: from here, or he went to Avignon, or proceed to Spain entering in Catalonia (and approaching the Carlist), or pass through Switzerland reaching Austria and settled place in Salzburg.

 

[Falecius]

And hence it has the prestige and precedent of tradition, something quite relevant for the Catholic Church. The Papal Palace in Avignon would need just a little refurbishing, but otherwise it is a perfect location.



If the Pope goes to Spain, Santiago de Compostela seems the natural place for the Papal seat, the place has a lot of religious prestige.

Agreed for Santiago, would be choice n.`1.