PC: King Cortes

With a PoD sometime after 1519, how plausible would you find the idea of Hernando Cortes forming and ruling a country independent of any European monarch?

I think it's a realistic possibility -- no ASBs needed. After all, he began the expedition on some rather flimsy legal pretexts, and if he was willing to organize a coup against Velasquez, he may have been willing to go further. As to his swearing loyalty to Charles V, it's not like he wasn't familiar with sweet talking a figure of power before double crossing him, even on (apparent) impulse. And in Europe, there were important men, notably including the Pope, who were not eager to see the Hapsburgs acquire more wealth and power, and might be open to Cortes' forming a new Catholic nation.

But what do you think?

Well thought-out thread.
It is entirely possible that if Cortes went a bit too far with his exploits, the King of Spain would cut his funding and leave Cortes for dead. If the King sent soldiers to dispose of Cortes, his great skills at convincing people would pay off. If this contiously happened, Cortes could well enough start the first European-American nation.

That's one way for it to happen; also remember that it wasn't until 1523 that Charles "appointed" Cortes governor, captain general and chief justice of the conquered territories; the years prior, Hernan had been acting on only his own authority.

There are a number of potential potential PoD's prior to this -- the crown even sent a second conquistador, Juan de Guarary, to take an area just north of Cortes influence, and the latter had some issues with that, to put it lightly.

John Fredrick Parker said:

With a PoD sometime after 1519, how plausible would you find the idea of Hernando Cortes forming and ruling a country independent of any European monarch?

I think it's a realistic possibility -- no ASBs needed. After all, he began the expedition on some rather flimsy legal pretexts, and if he was willing to organize a coup against Velasquez, he may have been willing to go further. As to his swearing loyalty to Charles V, it's not like he wasn't familiar with sweet talking a figure of power before double crossing him, even on (apparent) impulse. And in Europe, there were important men, notably including the Pope, who were not eager to see the Hapsburgs acquire more wealth and power, and might be open to Cortes' forming a new Catholic nation.

But what do you think?

Click to expand...

I once started a TL on that premise, but it's been dead for almost 2 years.

Anyway, he can play up the connection to Quetzalcoatl for all it's worth, convincing the Aztecs that he's been sent by his God (possibly connect Quetzalcoatl to Jesus instead, the way some of the Mormons do) to rule over them. And warn that if they don't follow him, they will be destroyed by later Spanish armies.

Good stuff here...

Anyway, he can play up the connection to Quetzalcoatl for all it's worth, convincing the Aztecs that he's been sent by his God (possibly connect Quetzalcoatl to Jesus instead, the way some of the Mormons do) to rule over them.

Click to expand...

I'm wondering if he can get away with that theology if we start sometime after 1519 -- by then he's already been pushing the Catholic faith hard (though he's also been saying that he's an ambassador to King Charles, so I suppose he'd have to be flexible) -- plus, trying to merge the faiths could lose him needed friends in Europe (again, I'm thinking about the Pope).

And warn that if they don't follow him, they will be destroyed by later Spanish armies.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a pretty good motivation

John Fredrick Parker said:

Good stuff here...



I'm wondering if he can get away with that theology if we start sometime after 1519 -- by then he's already been pushing the Catholic faith hard (though he's also been saying that he's an ambassador to King Charles, so I suppose he'd have to be flexible) -- plus, trying to merge the faiths could lose him needed friends in Europe (again, I'm thinking about the Pope).



Yeah, that's a pretty good motivation

Click to expand...

Well, he doesn't need to push it himself. He can have his subordinates "strongly imply" it, enough to get them to accept Cortes as their ruler, Jesus as their God, abolish human sacrifice, and still keep relatively good relations with the Aztec priests (who can in this case switch over relatively easily to their modified Christianity) and the Pope.

He can have his subordinates "strongly imply" it, enough to get them to accept Cortes as their ruler, Jesus as their God, abolish human sacrifice, and still keep relatively good relations with the Aztec priests (who can in this case switch over relatively easily to their modified Christianity) and the Pope.

Click to expand...

Maybe... I still think it would work at best as a temporary measure, and that if this was the balance -- as someone who never had much respect for any of the local religion -- Cortes himself would look to institute an inquisition at the soonest possible opportunity.

Now how does that sound -- a Mexican inquisition...

John Fredrick Parker said:

Maybe... I still think it would work at best as a temporary measure, and that if this was the balance -- as someone who never had much respect for any of the local religion -- Cortes himself would look to institute an inquisition at the soonest possible opportunity.

Now how does that sound -- a Mexican inquisition...

Click to expand...

Calling it a Nahua Inquisition and Nahua Emperor would be better. The word "Mexica" referred primarily to the Aztecs. Given that Cortes's main allies were the Tlaxcalans, who were often at war against the Aztecs, this seems to be a diplomatically incorrect name for a kingdom in which the Tlaxcalans have much power. Nahua, on the other hand, refers to the ethnic/linguistic group which included both Aztecs and Tlaxcalans.

Calling it a Nahua Inquisition and Nahua Emperor would be better. The word "Mexica" referred primarily to the Aztecs.

Click to expand...

GAH -- and I know this Sorry, I guess I wasn't thinking with the terminology of the time, but you're right, I absolutely should have been...

The "Nahua Inquisition" it is. But as to the Nahua Empire*, I'm thinking the conquerors (who stay) are going to want to call the country something less alien to European ears.

Something tells me Cortesia is a leading contender...

*that's what you meant, right

John Fredrick Parker said:

GAH -- and I know this Sorry, I guess I wasn't thinking with the terminology of the time, but you're right, I absolutely should have been...

The "Nahua Inquisition" it is. But as to the Nahua Empire*, I'm thinking the conquerors (who stay) are going to want to call the country something less alien to European ears.

Something tells me Cortesia is a leading contender...

*that's what you meant, right

Click to expand...

Yes, that is what I meant. But let's consider the aftermath of him gaining power. If he buys off the first Spaniards sent to arrest him (If the King finds out he's sitting on all that gold and not sharing, he's in for some invasion) with that gold he's sitting on, he can quickly acquire more steel and horses. Cortes's first priority will be mining gold and iron, buying off the King's men, and raising horses. He'll also need to make sure the Non-Christian nobility and priesthood don't rise up against him. After that, he'll be relatively safe from the Spaniards. Without a significant navy, he's no threat to Cuba or the rest of the Caribbean.

The Tarascans are an issue. They were more advanced than the Aztecs IOTL, but apparently less warlike (though more territorial), and hated the Aztecs. How might they react to this?

The Tarascans are an issue.

Click to expand...

Well, Cristobal de Olid didn't do too badly against them OTL; Cortes had them paying tribute in short order, and they were completely subjugated by the end of the decade. I wouldn't worry too much about them.

But let's consider the aftermath of him gaining power. If he buys off the first Spaniards sent to arrest him... with that gold he's sitting on, he can quickly acquire more steel and horses. Cortes's first priority will be mining gold and iron, buying off the King's men, and raising horses.

Click to expand...

As it happens, OTL, Cortes was already working on building an army -- mass producing gun powder and the like -- by 1522. As I recall, that included steel -- he was locating iron mines, and altering it on scale. And I don't think he had any shortage of horses.

He can not simply impose the Roman Catholic religion on the natives and expect them to abandon the local gods they revered for the Christian god... He does not have many priests with him I assume so he has to make due with the Aztec priests and use what temples that are not destroyed and convert them to be used as churches.

Click to expand...

Well, in the beginning he did; once an region was stuck with him, it wasn't long before his people rushed the temple, threw out statues of the old gods, and put up an icon of the Virgin Mary. On the other hand, come to think of it, I don't recall him being this theatrical with his Tlaxcalan allies, so I can see how he couldn't impose his religion on all the natives.

As to a shortage of priests, I'd think Rome would want to send over some more people. My thinking, the smart move for Cortes is to offer to provide for (protect, etc.) every clergyman the church has to offer and do everything he can to help set up the Church in Cortesia*. There's no real downside, since the Pope's going to have his own trouble finding volunteers for such difficult and potentially dangerous work, so the new monarch doesn't have to worry about overextending resources or isolating his support too much.

He is not in the position to impose too much of European culture on the natives so he would have to take up a Nahuatl name..

Click to expand...

Malinche the First... has a nice ring to it, no?

... as well as his soldiers who I assume would have to have top positions in the administration of his new empire to placate those with any thoughts to turn on him.

Click to expand...

Or if that's too risky, give them trunk of gold and send them off.

BTW, loving the comments so far; keep them coming.

*Yeah, I'm going with it

I was thinking if the Pope alienate Charles I (V) here over this, while the Reformation are starting up, Charles may be more tolerant of Luther, not enough to leave the Catholic Church but enough to not doing anything to stop him, and supporting the secularisation of Church property.

I was thinking if the Pope alienate Charles I (V) here over this, while the Reformation are starting up, Charles may be more tolerant of Luther, not enough to leave the Catholic Church but enough to not doing anything to stop him, and supporting the secularisation of Church property.

Click to expand...

Possibly, but OTL provides for something even stranger: Charles was often more fanatical in rooting out Protestantism than the Church!

For example, during the important period of preparations for the Augsburg Interim (itself central to the transformative Peace of Augsburg), the Pope withdrew his troops from Germany for the specific purpose of giving the Protestant princes more leverage in the negotiations.

Hernando Cortes would be smart to create his own navy to make sure the Spaniards do not try anything on any inflow of Catholic priests

Click to expand...

Charles, for his part, was too good a Catholic to go easy on the Protestants, so I tend to I think he'd have qualms about attacking priests as well. No, if the Pope double crossed him, his instinct was to invade and sack Rome, then hold His Holiness captive

Well I would prefer to refer to this nation as Mexico

Click to expand...

I'm pretty persuaded by Polish Eagle's rationale on the name; and come on, tell me Cortesia isn't a sweet name for a country.

Bumping this to keep it as an idea. An explorer as an all-and-out king is an interesting concept: I wonder if you could do the same to Colombus, or John Cabot, or perhaps even some of the more priestly explorers... Setting up oneself as a pagan-style Pope or native God-King, perhaps?

An explorer as an all-and-out king is an interesting concept: I wonder if you could do the same to Colombus, or John Cabot, or perhaps even some of the more priestly explorers.

Click to expand...

There's a reason I'm drawn to Cortes in particular.

See, the problem with Columbus (and, to a lesser extent, Cabot) was that, while he was a very talented self promoter, he was atrocious at pretty much every other political skill -- be it leadership, diplomacy, or just having some freaking idea of what to do with the islands once their conquered. Forget going it alone -- all the power Columbus had in the Indies he got by convincing Isabella to give it to him; without her favor, he had nothing.

Compare that to Columbus -- a brilliant, manipulative schemer, who combined megalomania with charisma, brutality with unpredictability. He began the Mexican expedition, essentially, with a coup, then winning over native nations and turning them against the most powerful among them -- then, when soldiers were sent to arrest him (for the coup) he won them over. And during all of this, he maintained the morale of his troops and his allies, uniting them with a mission for God, gold, and glory.

This is how he rose to power; unlike Columbus or Cabot at any point, he did not require the explicit permission of any European power to rule his conquests, and, I believe, he could have remained in power by the same authority that brought him to it -- his own.

Like I said -- there's a reason I'm drawn to Cortes in particular.

Bump number one*

*for this thread, anyway