Why are there no two-legged predators?

PipBoy2999

Banned
Was at dinosaur museum with son and got to thinking. Dinosaurs like T-Rex and Allyosaurus and Velociraptor were all two legged. Fast, binocular vision, viscious.

How come mammels haven't developed a similar phenotype? Why are all mammelian predators four legged pouncers?

I'm not including apes, chimps, or humans, as these are not true carnivors, they're omnivores.
 
I suppose because mammals all developed from a four legged ancestor, one which has had less time to develop than dinosaurs did.
 
there were some

there were some ostrich-like predators in southern america but they were supplanted by 4-legged mammal ftom northern america when the ismus was formed
 
well humans are bipedal apex predators

Bipedal gait is not necessarily better or worse than quadrupedal gait, they are simply different. Neither are inherently better for predators.

it's worth noting that all living creatures have had the same amount of time to evolve and have simply evolved in different directions. Non-avian dinosaurs by dint of going extinct 65Myrs ago actually had less time to evolve than modern mammals

As for the terror birds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorusrhacidae it would be more accurate to consider these as a continued tendency towards bipedalism in dinosaurs rather than as examples of non-dinosaur bipedal predators
 
There aren't really that many bipedal mammals- apart from humans/apes and (sort of) bats, the only ones I can think of are jerboas and kangaroos, which hop rather than running. A carnivorous rodent is unlikely- they don't have the teeth for it. On the other hand, there have been carnivorous mammals with hooves! Possibly a predatory kangaroo?

It would require a huge evolutionary change for a mammal to be bipedal like a bird or dinosaur, which is the only way it could have the speed to be a predator other than hopping.
 
There aren't really that many bipedal mammals- apart from humans/apes and (sort of) bats, the only ones I can think of are jerboas and kangaroos, which hop rather than running. A carnivorous rodent is unlikely- they don't have the teeth for it. On the other hand, there have been carnivorous mammals with hooves! Possibly a predatory kangaroo?

It would require a huge evolutionary change for a mammal to be bipedal like a bird or dinosaur, which is the only way it could have the speed to be a predator other than hopping.

There actually were predatory kangaroos up until about 10,000 years ago. If one of those had survived, it might have been interesting.
 

Interesting article. And there were other carnivorous species not mentioned there...one was about man-sized. Packs of THOSE running around the Outback today would make life in Australia, oh, so much more interesting. Not to mention giving an extra thread of excitement to those survival shows which film in the Outback. :D

BEAR GRYLLS: "Hello, I'm Bear Grylls, and I'm going to show you the things you need to know to survive in the unforgiving, but beautiful, Australian Outback."

<Bear hears something off to his left, looks over>

BEAR GRYLLS: "Wait...what's that over there? Holy crap! It's a pack of carnivorous Kangaroos. And they've got our scent!"

<looks at cameraman>

BEAR GRYLLS: "Run!"

<camera shakes violently as the cameraman runs for safety, then is knocked from his hands and falls to the ground. Sound of cameraman screaming. Camera still shows Bear Grylls running, then shows two kangaroos catch up with him>

BEAR GRYLLS: AHHHHHRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

<Kangaroos begin eating Bear's corpse. One of them looks over at the camera>

KANGAROO: "Excuse me, but does anyone have some Grey Poupon?"
 
Speaking as someone who has a fair background in paleontology, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Being bipedal may not have been much of an advantage at all.

Theropod dinosaurs literally couldn't become quadrupedal if they wanted to. The wrists of dinosaurs are often shown improperly in illustrations, but it would have been impossible for them to rotate their hands for their palms to face the ground. Birds inherited the same wrists, although since they have wings, it's become even more unlikely they'd make a reversal.

Being bipedal sucks in a lot of circumstances. It's very easy to lose balance for example, so prey could just knock one leg from under a predator and make them fall. Also, climbing in mountainous terrain is much easier on all fours, as anyone who's done some hiking can tell you.

Some things about being a biped are useful. For example, you can be a really fast runner. But it seems this isn't the case for mammals, because we have a flexible spine, like reptiles, and lack the rigid backbone which dinosaurs have and birds retain.

And as an aside, humans became bipedal more or less because we didn't have a choice. It's now thought the ancestors of humans, gorillas, and chimps were all somewhat bipedal when they were on the ground (like modern day orangs and gibbons are). Ape wrists are different from monkey wrists - if we ran on our palms, we'd shoot our wrist bones out in short measure. Gorillas and chimps evolved to scale tree trunks, became bow-legged, and had to resort to knuckle-walking, but we kept the ancestral bipedal gait.
 
Homo sapiens

Omnivorous biped, and top of the food chain.


Are we really preditors in the classic sense? Don't we raise most of our meat from birth and send it through a factroy-like slaughter process? We don't even need legs for that.

I mean I guess you could argue that hunting deer or other wild game is a different story, but with the use of firearms, once again, legs and mobility really don't factor into human carnivorism these days, even if you were to use a bow.

But regardless, we do have them... Although I think the original intent of this thread is to think about the bipedal dinosaur preditors that actually chased down and kill its prey, and compare them to existing fauna today.
 
Early limited bipedalism arose in conjunction with a semi-arboreal lifestyle which the great apes still illustrate. As the environment changed proto-humans moved out of the trees and into the savannas as opportunistic omnivores but they often returned to the trees for safety.

It wasn't until tool use and more complex intelligence arose that bipedalism became an actual evolutionary advantage. It left our hands free to use and make tools and to transport our young, which have very long developmental periods compared to many other animals. These hands which once had claws and such began less dangerous because our tools took their place. So it's safe to say that for a true predator/carnivore their own claws and morphology were more conducive to survival then bipedalism, which puts enormous stress on the body.

In an evolutionary sense bipedalism confers no real benefits to a predator. Sure some of the greatest predators of the age of dinosaurs were bipedal but this doesn't seem to be a requirement for being a successful predator.

Interestingly, there is evidence that Neanderthals consumed far more meat, as percentage of their total dietary intake, than homo sapiens did or does. While the almost certainly still took the opportunity to eat berries and roots, their diets were probably more similar to carnivores such as bears. So perhaps there were bipedal carnivores after all.

Benjamin
 
there were some ostrich-like predators in southern america but they were supplanted by 4-legged mammal ftom northern america when the ismus was formed

The OP only includes mammals except for apes and humans. Not birds.

well humans are bipedal apex predators

The OP does not include Humans.

Modern raptors are bi-pedal preditors , they're airborn, but they're preditors nonetheless.

The OP does not include Birds.

As well as the aquatic avian predators, especially the flightless ones like penguins and flightless cormorants.

Again, does not include birds.

Homo sapiens

Omnivorous biped, and top of the food chain.

Again, does not include Homo Sapiens.

I suppose because mammals all developed from a four legged ancestor, one which has had less time to develop than dinosaurs did.

Mammals were evolving long before the Dinosaurs appeared on the scene.

Speaking as someone who has a fair background in paleontology, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Being bipedal may not have been much of an advantage at all.

But isn't easier for the brain to coordinate two legs instead of four? I consider that as a huge advantage.
 

NothingNow

Banned
there were some ostrich-like predators in southern america but they were supplanted by 4-legged mammal ftom northern america when the ismus was formed

Terror Birds were not ostrich like! Rattites are a very different group to the point where it's like calling a Dolphin a type of Shark!

And actually they were really successful after the isthmus was formed considering how before that they fucking Swam to Cuba and North America, had a lark of it, finally dying off in the glaciation right after that due to competition with rival predators. Although they may have survived until about 15,000 years ago (about 15 to 25,000 years after man arrived in NA) but the evidence for that kinda sucks, so the usual date is about 1.5mya
T. walleri is estimated at being about 150kg on average with a top speed of 65km/h.
So it was pretty much the biggest Mofo around in the Southeast (Alligators being rather passive and lazy), until man wised up and got some really sharp sticks.

But we kinda talked about them before.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=140014
EDIT:Oh God that thread was awesome. I really should write that TL sooner or later.
 
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I may be wrong, but didn't all dinosaurs evolve from bipedal or semi-bipedal archosaur ancestors, with reversion to a full quadrapedal stance in the large herbivores a secondary adaptation? However, this raises the question? Were there any predatory dinosaurs that were not bipeds? Why not? If quadrapedalism provided a better frame for predation because of balance, tripping, etc., why didn't some of the readadpted quadrapeds become predators in the Mesozoic?

Is it possible that bipedal theropods with forearms freed from locomotive needs and able to evolve into full-time grasping/slashing claws or wings outweigh the balance/tripping issues?
 
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