In 35 bc livia and Octavian have a son who will grow up to be an earlier Trajan. Under his father he conquers germania up to the Elbe and marcomannia. What does he do when succeds his father?
Last edited:
Augustus and livia have a son
- Thread starter calvin1417
- Start date
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
To be honest, people this perfect are ASB.
Also, conquering Germania presents problems of communication, administration, and logistics. Roman Roads and Infrastructure can only go so far.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
More like, conquering Germania at all is the equivalent of - and sorry for stealing an analogy from another Forumite:
'Conquering Germania to save the Roman Empire is the equivalent of eating Twinkies in order to get thinner.'
Basically, there's such a thing as too much; heck, conquering Britannia was a liability - it may have been rich, but there's a reason it held a fourth of the Overall Roman Army when its frontier with the Caledonians was so small.
You could just have said son be equivalent to Trajan. He was considered even by the Romans to be better than Augustus in many respects (felicior augusto, melior traiano).
As for Germania, I think it all comes down to infrastructure. You have to build up quite a bit in Germania, but there's nothing inherent about Germania that makes it more difficult than, say, Dacia. It has the advantages of proximity to the Rhine and Danube lines of control. And it shortens the frontiers. All advantages Brittania lacks.
As for Germania, I think it all comes down to infrastructure. You have to build up quite a bit in Germania, but there's nothing inherent about Germania that makes it more difficult than, say, Dacia. It has the advantages of proximity to the Rhine and Danube lines of control. And it shortens the frontiers. All advantages Brittania lacks.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
Wouldn't the soil require a heavier plough, though, at least to fully utilize?
It certainly would. Of course, the Romans conquered other areas that could beneift treatly from such plow. But if we're imagining an ideal emperor, lets just have him take an interest in farming.
Ignoring the sheer impossibility of Augustus having a son who is perfect at everything and the greatest person to live, the consequences of Augustus having a son are interesting to say the least. Augustus never intended to have one chief successor. He intended to have several successors that shared his powers. Hence why you see him slowly promoting his family and close friends to wield the powers and authority he did. Agrippa, Marcellus, Tiberius, Drusus, Gaius and Lucius. Augustus's problem was they all kept dying, so by the end he only had Tiberius. Being Augustus, he still didn't want a sole successor, so he compromised-Tiberius could be the designated heir, but he would have to adopt Germanicus. The idea being Germanicus would shortly be old enough to hold power in his own right, along with Tiberius.
Now, how does Augustus's son play into this? Well I think it plays the same way. Certainly Gaius and Lucius being his nephews didn't stop him from still promoting Tiberius and Drusus at the same time. So the son of Augustus would be subject to the same system as Augustus was working on forming IOTL. The difference arises when Tiberius and this son are the last remaining ones left. Assuming Tiberius and Augustus don't have a falling out like they did IOTL, then you essentially have Tiberius and this Augustus son both sharing in the same powers that Tiberius had at around the time Augustus died. Now that would make for an interesting scenario...
As for Germania, conquering Germania was not only well within the grasp of the Romans reach, it was one of the goals of Augustus, who's expansion policy can be seen as one of providing buffer provinces everywhere to Italy. The Romans were well on their way to doing this until Teutoburg. Which brings me to the next point regarding Augustus's son. In this scenario, there will be no lack of a strong military figure in Germania. IOTL, Tiberius was the only one left who provided that, and he was badly needed in Illyria to quell the Great Illyrian Revolt. This left Augustus in a bind, so he promoted Varrus. And we all know how that turned out. Assuming there are now two capable military men on the scene, it is almost certain that one of them will remain in Germania, while the other will go to quell the Illyrian Revolt. This should prevent any military disaster in Germania while the Romans can least afford it (Dio points out that after quelling the Illyrian Revolt, Augustus's manpower levels were completely exhausted. He had had to purchase and recruit slaves to fill his army, so dire was the manpower crisis. This meant he had literally no way of making up for the loss of 3 legions, so Germania became untenable). There's no reason to expect then that the Romans would abandon their attempts at subduing and Romanising Germania up to the Elbe..
Also, a Rhine-Rhone canal helps.
EDIT: An interesting byproduct of a frontier at the Elbe (and when LSCatilina arrives, he can go wayyyy more into the logistics and how the defense of the region would work, or how this effects the urbanization of the Rhineland, as he has done in the past), is how the defense of the region would work and its effects on civil wars. You'd probably have 2 or so legions still on the Rhine, while a few more would be along the Elbe frontier (and you'd also probably see a conquest of Marcomannia, since this makes geographical sense and was actually what Tiberius was planning to do in Germania until Augustus was forced to recall him and most of his legions to deal with the Great Illyrian Revolt), it makes the time to reach Italy from the Elbe much longer than from the Rhine. Which I imagine would have tremendous effects on civil wars and the ability of the Elbe legions to impact succession crises.
Now, how does Augustus's son play into this? Well I think it plays the same way. Certainly Gaius and Lucius being his nephews didn't stop him from still promoting Tiberius and Drusus at the same time. So the son of Augustus would be subject to the same system as Augustus was working on forming IOTL. The difference arises when Tiberius and this son are the last remaining ones left. Assuming Tiberius and Augustus don't have a falling out like they did IOTL, then you essentially have Tiberius and this Augustus son both sharing in the same powers that Tiberius had at around the time Augustus died. Now that would make for an interesting scenario...
As for Germania, conquering Germania was not only well within the grasp of the Romans reach, it was one of the goals of Augustus, who's expansion policy can be seen as one of providing buffer provinces everywhere to Italy. The Romans were well on their way to doing this until Teutoburg. Which brings me to the next point regarding Augustus's son. In this scenario, there will be no lack of a strong military figure in Germania. IOTL, Tiberius was the only one left who provided that, and he was badly needed in Illyria to quell the Great Illyrian Revolt. This left Augustus in a bind, so he promoted Varrus. And we all know how that turned out. Assuming there are now two capable military men on the scene, it is almost certain that one of them will remain in Germania, while the other will go to quell the Illyrian Revolt. This should prevent any military disaster in Germania while the Romans can least afford it (Dio points out that after quelling the Illyrian Revolt, Augustus's manpower levels were completely exhausted. He had had to purchase and recruit slaves to fill his army, so dire was the manpower crisis. This meant he had literally no way of making up for the loss of 3 legions, so Germania became untenable). There's no reason to expect then that the Romans would abandon their attempts at subduing and Romanising Germania up to the Elbe..
Also, a Rhine-Rhone canal helps.
EDIT: An interesting byproduct of a frontier at the Elbe (and when LSCatilina arrives, he can go wayyyy more into the logistics and how the defense of the region would work, or how this effects the urbanization of the Rhineland, as he has done in the past), is how the defense of the region would work and its effects on civil wars. You'd probably have 2 or so legions still on the Rhine, while a few more would be along the Elbe frontier (and you'd also probably see a conquest of Marcomannia, since this makes geographical sense and was actually what Tiberius was planning to do in Germania until Augustus was forced to recall him and most of his legions to deal with the Great Illyrian Revolt), it makes the time to reach Italy from the Elbe much longer than from the Rhine. Which I imagine would have tremendous effects on civil wars and the ability of the Elbe legions to impact succession crises.
Well, you will then have to dix one key fact that was too often ignored. Octavian Augustus was a disastrous father. He did not know how to raise children.
His only daughter, Julia, was quite a bitch and she participated in a plot against her father's life. That's why he had her jailed in a small island until the last of her days.
His 2 adopted grandsons, Gaius and Lucius, were politically and militarily incompetent and were rather spoiled and weak personalities, not to talk about his last grandson Agrippa Posthumus. The comparison with their cousin Germanicus is very obvious about this.
All other members of the first generations of the julio-claudian dynasty that were not raised by Augustus were much better although not as good as you would like for your magic Augustus and Livia's son.
Tiberius and Drusus were raised by their father Tibetius Claudius Nero.
What evidence do we actually have about the character of Gaius and Lucius? They weren't exactly around long enough to accurately judge them, no?
So what would the effect of Emperor Garrius Stuius be? I'd say the biggest would be it would make the Julio-Claudian Dynasty much more stable; if a father-son precedent is set that would do wonders for long term stable succession. Garrius Stuius, if he really is that good, would probably also nip the Praetorian problem in the bud, which, again, helps with stability. If Garrius Stuius conquers Germania, it is probably lost in several decades, due to Roman Imperial overstretch. Rome would probably eventually fall, and its really impossible to say when, when there are so many variables to account for.
Tiberius and Drusus were really young at their father death... Tibeius was nine and Drusus five so they were also raised by Augustus and Livia, specially the latter.
After Actium all the children and surviving stepchildren of Octavia also were likely under the protection or supervision of Augustus.
Julia really was likely much different by your portrait... She was not exactly the proper roman girl who her father wished but liked enjoy culture, and luxury and likely she and her circle of friends more than plotting against Augustus wished only Julia having a part of her children's custody (or a say in the manner in which they were raised and maybe a remarriage for her (she was already married thrice at her father's order and her third wedding with the retired or better exiled-but-in-name Tiberius was a total disaster) with Iullus Antonius as the most logical candidate and maybe a relaxing on some laws (who were thinked a little excessive).
In any case the story of Julia and her friend's conspiration is likely an exageration mounted by Augustus who had interest in destroy a well know groups of young aristrocrats who were not supporters of his law and if he needed to make of his daughter an exemple of punishment for the people who do not respected his law well was not a problem because the woman was not useful if Augustus can not point to her as a model of roman vitues
About Gaius and Lucius and their lives we know little and they died young (Gaius was 24 years old and Lucius 19/20) so we can not say what kind of rules they wuold have been.
And Augustus, while favouring almost all the members of his family and his closest associates had always intention to left everything to a main heir: first Marcellus, then Agrippa, after Gaius (with Lucius as replacement) and in the end Tiberius (mostly because Agustus thinked who he was near to his death at the moment he adopted him) followed by Germanicus. Likely if Augustus had know he had still ten years of life when he adopted Tiberius he will have directly adopted Germanicus
Deleted member 93645
Precisely. The lack of evidence itself can be analyzed as the fact that there was nothing positive to say about them.
There are a few sources about Gaius who lived a bit longer than Lucius. And these sources show us that Gaius failed in his lacked the character of a Statesman and that his mind was broken when he faced difficulties in his asian mission and that he decided to step down from political activity.
Tiberius Claudius Nero, father of Tiberius and Drusus, died in 33 when his 2 sons were 9 and 5 years old. Concerning child breeding, 2000 years ago as well as today, all was settled before being 6 years old. Tiberius Claudius Nero took cares that his 2 young sons had the best education including on the moral field that was so important to the roman nobility. He did sow the seeds that turned them into Statesmen and military commanders. Augustus could not so it with his own children.
Concerning Augustus' succession, Augustus did indeed force Tiberius to adopt Germanicus at the same Time as he himself adopted Tiberius in order to be sure that the succession would occur the way Augustus wanted. That is, in fact of his grandnephew who happened to also be the grandson of his wife and the husband of his favourite granddaughter (with whom he had many children).
Last edited:
I disagree. We don't have much to say on them because both of them died before they could actually show what skills or lack thereof they might have had. If Scipio Africanus had died in Cannae, we would not have heard much about him either, and yet that wouldn't discount his military and political abilities. We just wouldn't have known about them.
If Scipio Africanus had died at the Trebia battle when trying to rescue his father as he OTL successfully did, there still might have been family tradition relations the courage of the young dead Publiis Cornelius Scipio, the same way as the family tradition of the Aemilii Lepidi kept the memory of the young Marcus, elder son of the famous Marcus Armilius Lepidus (who was twice consul, censor, and serves as Princeps Senatus and Pontifex Maximus for 27 years) and who died while brillantly and bravely participatîg in the war against Antiochos III.
To my opinion, the fact that there was so little written about Gaius and Lucius, although their grandfather and adoptive father was nobody else than Augustus who entrusted them with the highest responsibilities unusually young, is a hint that they, and especially Gaius who lived to be 23, had no noticeable talent except their being born from Augustus' only daughter.
To my opinion, the fact that there was so little written about Gaius and Lucius, although their grandfather and adoptive father was nobody else than Augustus who entrusted them with the highest responsibilities unusually young, is a hint that they, and especially Gaius who lived to be 23, had no noticeable talent except their being born from Augustus' only daughter.
So I turned down the guys Gary stuness and just made him an early Trajan but I did give him the conquest of marcomannia in his fathers reign as bonus.
There was not much written about Marcellus either. Perhaps I should revise my scenario about Scipio. Had Scipio fallen ill and died before the battle of the Trebia, not much would have been said about him. Similarly, if Octavian had bit the dust during the Mutina campaign, there would not be much written about him, at least not much favorably. He would have been known as this frail and sickly kid who did not have the ability to live up to his adoptive father's legacy.