Not concerned so much with the hows and whys as I am with the short- and long-term effects of the Caliphate winning the Battle of Tours. What does this do to Europe in general? I admit I don't know enough about the topic at hand so I'm looking for information.
WI: Umayyads Win The Battle Of Tours
- Thread starter VirginiaHistoryTeacher
- Start date
I'm loving all these Islamic threads
I don't think any of the conquests in France could be held long term. It would interesting to see the results Islamic influence on France if even for a short time.
I don't think any of the conquests in France could be held long term. It would interesting to see the results Islamic influence on France if even for a short time.I'm loving all these Islamic threads
And Positive ones, rather the others kind. https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=219836
God, that TL just ignores the butterflies so much. Seljuks, Mongols, Timurids, Shaybanids, Ottomans, Safavids, Mughals...
(No offence intended, Delvestius!)
The question is how do they win. If the Ummayads kill charles martel. His son Pippin would only be 18 years old at this point. Frankish kingdom might be in peril but I would imagine the caliphate forces are already overextended.
If Charles retreats and then returns to fight again, he likely will improve his fighting position and gather more forces.
Marc
Donor
Moorish Iberia
A possibility that isn't, as far as I know, discussed is the Christian reconquest not getting any traction due to a more successful/aggressive Moorish presence - imagine just west and northwest Iberia being under some Christian rulers, i.e Portugal and the Kingdom of Asturias.
A possibility that isn't, as far as I know, discussed is the Christian reconquest not getting any traction due to a more successful/aggressive Moorish presence - imagine just west and northwest Iberia being under some Christian rulers, i.e Portugal and the Kingdom of Asturias.
I'm loving all these Islamic threads
This seems to be the consensus here - that a Umayyad victory at Tours/Poitiers could not be decisive and that the Franks would eventually drive them back - but I'm not completely certain of that. Many of their invasions from the 632-732 period were with smallish armies that won surprising victories. Tariq's invasion of Spain in 711 seems positively insane in retrospect, yet it succeeded and led to a 700-year presence in Iberia.
One thing that is pretty much certain is that the Umayyads would need reinforcements to hold down Gaul. This would require the Berbers not to revolt, so a TL dealing with a Tours victory has to find a way to avoid that. But I think it can be done.
An Islamic victory at Tours would have changed nothing because it was not an invasion but one of many muslim raids into Francia. If they were not stopped then, then they will be stopped soem years later. And BTW a victory of the muslims raiders is very unrealistic because the military equipment of the Franks were superior to the one of the raiders.
Marc
Donor
Not necessarily all of Gaul, to profoundly change the course of Western history (and therefore, global history): If the Umayyads can not only hold Septimania and then onto say the bulk of Provence. They get just about full control of the Western Mediterranean, for some indefinite time; distinctly side-track if not cause the Carolingian Empire to be still-born; and pretty much limit the Reconquestia to at best Atlantic Iberia (Portugal, Galicia, Asturias).
Ironically, having a culturally vibrant, and geopolitically potent Umayyad Caliphate on their doorstep for few more centuries could very well have a lot more positive effects on Western Europe than what really happened.
Zlorfik
Banned
not much
as mentioned, septimania will fall under their sway. provence is possible too. historically, muslims set up a pirate coven there (don't remember the name ATM) from which to plunder the surrounding region
just goes to show you than even IOTL, christian forces there weren't all that united/powerful/motivated
as mentioned, septimania will fall under their sway. provence is possible too. historically, muslims set up a pirate coven there (don't remember the name ATM) from which to plunder the surrounding region
just goes to show you than even IOTL, christian forces there weren't all that united/powerful/motivated