The NextGen OTL Worlda Series

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Your whole point is why the program cannot intrinsically read your mind and alter all its settings right off the bat to cater to your desire? It's a paint program first and foremost, you have to change things to make it work as a pixel-art program.

The most basic function should be the default. Not a hard concept to grasp.

You select the area you want to copy

You select the magic wand tool and switch it to intersect & flood mode

And then you you just click the borders (make sure the tolerance is 0)

That's a lot of fucking around for something MS Paint can do with one click. Like, what the heck do "intersect" and "flood mode" even mean here? It's so needlessly complicated.

 

[Entrerriano]

The most basic function should be the default. Not a hard concept to grasp.

That's a lot of fucking around for something MS Paint can do with one click. Like, what the heck do "intersect" and "flood mode" even mean here? It's so needlessly complicated.

Trust me that these are not inherently complicated settings (Paint.NET is actually not that complete in my opinion). You can still choose to keep using MSPaint if you don't think Paint.NET is useful for you.

 

[OxSpace]

The most basic function should be the default. Not a hard concept to grasp.

Your concept is that Paint.NET, a completely different program should behave exactly like MSPaint. What you consider a "basic function" is an extremely barebones version of the tool because MSPaint lacks any depth to it. It's not difficult to adjust how the tool acts to have it be ""default"" as you put it.

That's a lot of fucking around for something MS Paint can do with one click. Like, what the heck do "intersect" and "flood mode" even mean here?

I can guarantee you that those 6 clicks (I counted) would be significantly faster than painting around the area you want to copy in white and then copying it over and pasting; especially for larger countries.

It's so needlessly complicated.

It's not. You're just unfamiliar with the program & the alternate workflow.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Your concept is that Paint.NET, a completely different program should behave exactly like MSPaint. What you consider a "basic function" is an extremely barebones version of the tool because MSPaint lacks any depth to it. It's not difficult to adjust how the tool acts to have it be ""default"" as you put it.

No, my concept is that a paintbucket tool should replace one colour with another without having to change settings. You should only have to change settings on such a tool to get to do something other than that. Considering that is what a paintbucket tool on an image editor is for.

In any case, obviously I want a programme as close to MS Paint as possible. That was the whole point of this conversation. The better programme, MS Paint, was glitching on me for some reason. I've found a workaround which is slightly more annoying but at least I can continue to use it.

People always recommend PDN as an alternative to Paint, but it's not a good alternative, which is what I've been trying to explain. I'm only trying to make simple WorldA maps for the purposes of relaxation and entertainment. Half the maps I start I don't even finish, and half the maps I finish I don't even share. The point of it is that I can take my time making something. Bells and whistles aren't necessary. Annoying little quirky settings that need adjusting constantly stop it from being relaxing.

I can guarantee you that those 6 clicks (I counted) would be significantly faster than painting around the area you want to copy in white and then copying it over and pasting; especially for larger countries.

The heck are you talking about? Right-click with the paintbucket to fill space with white. Lasso select the, for example, river and coastline. Ctrl-C. Ctrl-V in other map. White is transparent, so all I'm pasting is the river and the coastline to help line it up. Job done. Now I can use the river as a border reference. I don't need whatever the heck the magic wand is supposed to do.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Meanwhile my current map project has 67 layers and I'm not even done with it

What does this actually mean? Like you have 67 editable layers overlayed in one file or something?

 

[iori]

What does this actually mean? Like you have 67 editable layers overlayed in one file or something?

I was thinking a mixture of that and different ideas they had but weren't sure of; my brother draws and makes comics and when he's working on them he always has like two dozen layers, half of which are just variations.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

K

I was thinking a mixture of that and different ideas they had but weren't sure of; my brother draws and makes comics and when he is he always has like two dozen layers, half of which are just variations.

I'm genuinely interested in the answer because I don't know what to mentally envision when people are talking about layering their maps and shit 3:

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

K

I'm genuinely interested in the answer because I don't know what to mentally envision when people are talking about layering their maps and shit 3:

Imagine drawing two slightly different maps on two clear sheets of plastic. Put one on top of the other. That's layering. Some people might use it to draw new basemaps by hand for example; i.e. the bottom layer is a reference image of a continent, the top layer is where you draw the outline. When you've finished the outline, you would delete the bottom layer, leaving you with your blank map. It's a useful tool if you need it. Not so much if you don't.

 

[oshron]

as far as mapmaking and especially layers goes, i use Photoshop and i typically have separate layers for borders and colors at the very least. my ultimate goal for my ASB ATL, at least, is to ultimately have all the maps for that in one editing file marked with their respective years, but as yet i haven't gotten far enough in the individual developments to really do that and i end up focusing much more on the present (which is a bit in the future relative to OTL as i write this post--my procrastination means that the gap is closing, though ) and occasionally individual years in the past but i haven't solidified many if any of the changes divergences and other ideas i've come up with more recently

 

[OxSpace]

No, my concept is that a paintbucket tool should replace one colour with another without having to change settings. You should only have to change settings on such a tool to get to do something other than that. Considering that is what a paintbucket tool on an image editor is for.

It does. I cannot tell you what happened in your France image because I do not have the context of the entire window to look at. Others and I have told you what likely happened but you seem persistent on blaming the program instead.

In any case, obviously I want a programme as close to MS Paint as possible. That was the whole point of this conversation.

It is "close", you just seem allergically stubborn to anything with a learning curve and refused to give it a chance & have completely given up on trying to learn the program because it was not acting the way you intended.

The better programme, MS Paint

Please stop with the delusion. It's like comparing a shovel to an excavator on a job site--or a shovel to an auger.

I'm only trying to make simple WorldA maps for the purposes of relaxation and entertainment. Half the maps I start I don't even finish, and half the maps I finish I don't even share. The point of it is that I can take my time making something. Bells and whistles aren't necessary. Annoying little quirky settings that need adjusting constantly stop it from being relaxing.

Then stop arguing with people. Most people here are trying to help you and were willing to help you learn the program but you don't seem like you want help and are more interested in wanking off the "superiority" of MSPaint.

The heck are you talking about? Right-click with the paintbucket to fill space with white. Lasso select the, for example, river and coastline. Ctrl-C. Ctrl-V in other map. White is transparent, so all I'm pasting is the river and the coastline to help line it up. Job done. Now I can use the river as a border reference. I don't need whatever the heck the magic wand is supposed to do.

You have completely missed the point. How many times do you have to right-click to fill around the nation white? Say I want to copy Russia's internals, that's a whole lot of clicking. The magic wand will do the same thing without having the fill the space white.

 

[Entrerriano]

What does this actually mean? Like you have 67 editable layers overlayed in one file or something?

In the most basic sense, yes, though many of these are reference layers - in this case of historical worldas so I can quickly copy or reference borders. But also many of them are text layers, since in GIMP every text box is a different layer; you can of course flatten these layers down if you don't want to edit the text any longer but I prefer to keep them as editable text boxes just in case.

 

[iori]

Please stop with the delusion. It's like comparing a shovel to an excavator on a job site--or a shovel to an auger.

For the stuff ENZ and a lot of other do it IS the better program.

Then stop arguing with people. Most people here are trying to help you and were willing to help you learn the program but you don't seem like you want help and are more interested in wanking off the "superiority" of MSPaint.

Ok but this whole thing started when he was sharing his frustration at a glitch and asking if anyone knrw how to fix it and a bunch of others essentially responded with "LOL, you're still using that, get with the times!" and criticized him for not using other programs instead of either trying to help with the actual problem.

 

[OxSpace]

For the stuff ENZ and a lot of other do it IS the better program.

It's better because it's completely featureless. You can just ignore 3/4th of what P.N has to offer and get the same results with a small amount of workflow change that apparently is armageddon to the hobby.

Ok but this whole thing started when he was sharing his frustration at a glitch and asking if anyone knrw how to fix it and a bunch of others essentially responded with "LOL, you're still using that, get with the times!" and criticized him for not using other programs instead of either trying to help with the actual problem.

Sure, maybe it was a bit crude of others, but it's also indicative that their only solution to the problem of a program very few uses nowadays is to switch over to a program they're more acquainted with. This was just met with absolutely no reception to the idea because "I don't know how to use this program (yet) and I refuse to learn this program and I'll subsequently criticize said program based entirely on my lack of experience with it". The alternate response here would be not suggesting anything at all & leaving ENZ with no potential avenue. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[iori]

It's better because it's completely featureless. You can just ignore 3/4th of what P.N has to offer and get the same results with a small amount of workflow change that apparently is armageddon to the hobby.

Change for the sake of change isn't a good thing though, like if someone's happy with a program it literally doesn't matter that another program can do the same things but in different ways if the person is fine with what they have.


Sure, maybe it was a bit crude of others, but it's also indicative that their only solution to the problem of a

program very few uses nowadays

While obviously we'd need actual polls to figure it out, I'm pretty certain half the people on this site who do maps use MS Paint, either by itself or alongside other programs.

The alternate response here would be not suggesting anything at all & leaving ENZ with no potential avenue. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

After the first time that ENZ said that he had no interest in other programs that's frankly exactly what people should have done, they're not helping by continually suggesting W, X and Z when he's specifically stated he's only interested in, and looking for help with, Y.

 

[OxSpace]

Change for the sake of change isn't a good thing though, like if someone's happy with a program it literally doesn't matter that another program can do the same things but in different ways if the person is fine with what they have.

I don't disagree, but the choices here are trying to do a workaround for a bug that might be unfixable(?) or make the switch to a different program that's actively optimized. It's not a change for the sake of a change but a change in the face of a problem.

While obviously we'd need actual polls to figure it out, I'm pretty certain half the people on this site who do maps use MS Paint, either by itself or alongside other programs.

Maybe for worlda but I doubt any of the maps on the map thread are made in MSPaint.

After the first time that ENZ said that he had no interest in other programs that's frankly exactly what people should have done, they're not helping by continually suggesting W, X and Z when he's specifically stated he's only interested in, and looking for help with, Y.

It takes two to have a conversation. ENZ has also made several posts presenting problems he's had with P.N that warrant people to come in to help/explain.

 

[iori]

Maybe for worlda but I doubt any of the maps on the map thread are made in MSPaint.

Going through pages 214-224 of the Map thread, of the 33 maps posted only 6 of them look like they'd have been made without MS Paint (or Paint.NET for that matter), while the majority of them look like they were probably only made with MS Paint.

It takes two to have a conversation. ENZ has also made several posts presenting problems he's had with P.N that warrant people to come in to help/explain.

Which were the result of people trying to press him to use those programs, like there are several things in Paint.NET I could've explained to him how to do, but I also knew he did not want to use the program, so it was pointless to do so.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

It does. I cannot tell you what happened in your France image because I do not have the context of the entire window to look at. Others and I have told you what likely happened but you seem persistent on blaming the program instead.

No it doesn't. On a brand new PDN file you have to turn of aliasing and reduce one of those other stupid settings before it does anything remotely useful. Otherwise the colour fill bleeds into surrounding pixels.

It is "close", you just seem allergically stubborn to anything with a learning curve and refused to give it a chance & have completely given up on trying to learn the program because it was not acting the way you intended.

It isn't close. It's basically a poor man's PhotoShop.

It's like comparing a shovel to an excavator on a job site--or a shovel to an auger.

No, it's like someone complaining that their shovel isn't working to plant a flower, and then someone else coming along and saying, "LOL USE AN EXCAVATOR, OH WHAT, IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN A SHOVEL, YOU JUST REFUSE TO LEARN".

You have completely missed the point.

No, you have, and deliberately so, which is just kind of gross.

How many times do you have to right-click to fill around the nation white? Say I want to copy Russia's internals, that's a whole lot of clicking. The magic wand will do the same thing without having the fill the space white.

Secondary colour = white, primary colour = Russian gold/green/whatever, right click and drag eraser at largest size. No other bullshit needed.

 

[OxSpace]

No it doesn't. On a brand new PDN file you have to turn of aliasing and reduce one of those other stupid settings before it does anything remotely useful. Otherwise the colour fill bleeds into surrounding pixels.

I can select a color, and click a place and it'll fill it with that color. That is its most basic function. I'm still not sure why you keep persisting that that's not what it does. Those supposedly "useless" settings allow far greater user input into how the tool acts. I'm sorry that P.N's generic settings are not perfectly catered to worlda pixel mapping--some programs have a bit of a standard when it comes to user input.

It isn't close. It's basically a poor man's PhotoShop.

Any image editing program is a "poor man's Photoshop", this doesn't mean much. Gimp, Krita--whichever you pick.

No, you have, and deliberately so, which is just kind of gross.

Secondary colour = white, primary colour = Russian gold/green/whatever, right click and drag eraser at largest size. No other bullshit needed.

Yes so as I said, "faster than painting around the area you want to copy in white". Which was my original point that you're still missing. Don't assume things like I'm "deliberately" pulling your leg, that is kind of gross.

 

[OxSpace]

Going through pages 214-224 of the Map thread, of the 33 maps posted only 6 of them look like they'd have been made without MS Paint (or Paint.NET for that matter), while the majority of them look like they were probably only made with MS Paint.

Not sure what your gauge was, but I counted more than 6.

Which were the result of people trying to press him to use those programs, like there are several things in Paint.NET I could've explained to him how to do, but I also knew he did not want to use the program, so it was pointless to do so.

No one was pressing them to use it. The first person dropped it after they said they didn't like it and the others only responded to their completely ignorant takes. A lot of this could've been avoided if they were less combative. Simply stop responding to the P.N people.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Hey guys calm down before things get all Coventry in here everyone has made some fine points but I don't know if this conversation has a particularly good chance of getting ENZ the type of help he wants so lay as well not continue it for chivalrous reasons(from my perspective <.<)