Russia and Germany as allies in an alternate WW1

I have been doing some reading and research on the alliance structure pre-WW1 .

The League of Three Emperors was a short lived alliance between Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia. It was tried twice by Bismark but fell apart each time because of Balkans, specifically Russia and Austria's competing interest in the region.

In OTL Germany went with Austria, but I got to thinking what the war would look like had they gone with Russia instead.

Russia seams to be the stronger Ally (with or without hindsight). Russia could provide food to Germany against a possible British blockade.

Austria-Hungary is likely driven into the arms of France (who is looking for allies to go against Germany). Given OTL, I don't see that working out great for them. Should a war break out I could certainly see Germany seeking annexation of the Austrian part.

Would a Germany-Russian alliance work in this period? Would it have won an alternate conflict around our WWI?

In terms of Alliances I would think the most likely would be France, UK, AH, v. Russia, Germany, Italy with the balkan countries splitting between both.
 
I don't think it would work out as well as people imagine it would. Before I go on I'm going to preface this by saying most of my take on this is going to be about the situation of Austria-Hungary, because they would be the biggest change here. And you could kind of call this an AH wank? I don't know, I am a bit biased for sure, I think they had a lot more potential then everyone seems to think and that they weren't doomed to collapse. I think they could be pretty powerful. I am going to be making a lot of assumptions, so I am not saying this is what would definitely happen, maybe take it as what could happen. It is alt history after all. And I'm not as well read as some posters on here either.


An alliance is possible because the monarchs of both nations like each other, and were both hostile to Britain at points, so it's not impossible that they can become allies. But the German and Russian governments and militaries do not like each other. It would have to be an alliance of necessity. In OTL the German government which was dominated by the Social Democrats was a big fan of war against Russia because they thought Russia was the biggest opponent to social democracy. But that's not super important as to why I don't think it'll work out. I don't think it'll work out because Russia was only as strong as it was in OTL because of loans from the French and British that Kickstarted industrialization. Germany could not provide those loans because it was busy investing in itself, that's why AH wasn't getting fat checks from Berlin either. Without big loans to kickstart industrialization Russia is going to be far weaker, 20-30 years behind the other powers. Now AH on the other hand should be far stronger because now it, instead of Russia is the recipient of those loans. Austria-Hungary in OTL without big checks from any other power was the second fastest growing economy in Europe after Russia. They were 98% the size of France + Algeria. Now in this TL they would be the fastest growing economy in Europe, bigger then France easily, maybe even knocking on Germanys doorstep if they have some "miracle on the Danube" type economic explosion. The economic potential of the Habsburg empire is not talked about much, they made a lot of missteps early on, like maria Theresa making different custom unions for each kingdom, and then 1848-1866 freezing the empire economically because of constant war, but regardless of all this they still caught up to France. That's pretty crazy to me. So I think the AH economy would go pretty crazy here.


Now the next thing changing the chances for AH is the alliance system. Before, they were allies to conservative Germany and Russia, so they followed a more conservative policy approach, Franz Joseph himself was also conservative as were most Austrian statesmen but due to external pressure reforms like Hohenwarts federal plan were never implemented. Now AH is allied to 2 liberal powers, who are also giving it a lot of money. And I think that combined with the state not having pressure from Germany or Russia, would lead to an AH that has a better relationship with it's minorities and it would change the deal with Hungary. I'm not going to say AH is going to federalize, that would be dreaming, this is still a overall conservative empire with a conservative monarch. Im just proposing a general better relationship with its minorities. So things like the Bohemian language law are pushed through. Christopher Clark and other historians have said that the Austro Hungarian system could work and had worked under pre WW1 ministers, and had it progressed peacefully multiple guarantees for minorities could have been put in place to get them behind the central government. All I am proposing is that due to a liberal alliance system, and AH not wanting to associate itself with its conservative enemies and gain more support among its people, those guarantees are fast tracked. There is still a centralized government, but that government just works more with it's people. Now, I think this could change the arrangement with Hungary because since the Habsburgs are essentially surrounded by enemies, they can't risk a low military budget, so I think they would force full male suffrage on Hungary to remove the aristocrats who refused to work with Austria.


Now we have a significantly richer AH, with a Hungary that probably won't kneecap military budgets, and better relations with it's minorities. I think all this leads to a significantly stronger AH. Maybe not on the level of Germany but definitely stronger then France, they were already economically close to France in OTL, here they should be substantially richer and have more money for the army.




As for how a war would play out. It would be a close race but Germany would still lose IMO. I can Austria and France attempting their own Schlieffen plan, trying to beat Germany before Russia mobilizes, with a massive AH army to their south, I don't think Germany wins the battle of frontiers and likely gets pushed back into the Rhineland. Russia is stuck in the 1880s, and would prove a weak challenger, with Austria-Hungary taking up defensive positions in Poland and cutting most of Russo German trade. Russia with an industrial boom in OTL couldn't feed itself, this Russia certainly isn't feeding Germany. Romania and Bulgaria would join Germany because I think Serbia remain in alt AHs camp, so the Balkans would be Bulgaria+Romania vs buffed AH, Serbia, and the Ottomans. Italy isn't a factor here because they are a peninsula that is surrounded by the British Mediterranean fleet, the French Mediterranean fleet, and the Austrian fleet. They will be bombed to high heaven if they join Germany and they know it. Economically they would be dependent on Britain and France too. I think war would end around year 2 as Russia would economically collapse as it's 30 years behind everyone else, and Germany wouldn't be able to find the raw materials or food to keep fighting.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I don't think it would work out as well as people imagine it would. Before I go on I'm going to preface this by saying most of my take on this is going to be about the situation of Austria-Hungary, because they would be the biggest change here. And you could kind of call this an AH wank? I don't know, I am a bit biased for sure, I think they had a lot more potential then everyone seems to think and that they weren't doomed to collapse. I think they could be pretty powerful. I am going to be making a lot of assumptions, so I am not saying this is what would definitely happen, maybe take it as what could happen. It is alt history after all. And I'm not as well read as some posters on here either.
You got moxie, kid. I like the cut of your jib. Give em hell, bonesy!
 
...

... Now AH is allied to 2 liberal powers, who are also giving it a lot of money. ...
Why? the french and british investments (greatly encouraged if not arranged by the respective goverments) had rock hard strategically and that in a military sense only incentives.

What would be these incentives regarding A-H?
... without 'awakening' Berlin?
... and the rather schtrongk pro- and pangerman politics of A-H?
... And I think that combined with the state not having pressure from Germany or Russia, would lead to an AH that has a better relationship with it's minorities and it would change the deal with Hungary. I'm not going to say AH is going to federalize, that would be dreaming, this is still a overall conservative empire with a conservative monarch. Im just proposing a general better relationship with its minorities. ...
... again : Why?
Said 'liberal' partners had not a very splendid reputation or management of their own national minorities as i.e. the growing indipendence movements (or Home Rule) in Scotland and Ireland might hint at or the 'problematic' issue of independence of the welsh church?
Not to speak of the bonehard centralisation going in France sionce ... centuries with franconisation of whatever minorities there are/were (Bretones, Provencales, Occitanes, ...).

Actually ... IMHO the Habsburg empire as it stood alread in 1914 was MUCH more federalised and offered it minorities much more autonomy in its constitutional setup than each of said potential 'liberal' parnters.
They won't be any help for the double monarchy but rather leed to even stronger and further centrifugal effects (not to speak of the most unliberal 'goverment' there was : Hungary under Tisza).


Nevertheless an interesting though experiment :)
(maby more on your economical musings later ... maybe)
 
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Now AH on the other hand should be far stronger because now it, instead of Russia is the recipient of those loans.
Why? The whole point of investing in Russia was because they were backwards, AH is not so no reason to loan as much money as they gave to Russia.
Now the next thing changing the chances for AH is the alliance system. Before, they were allies to conservative Germany and Russia, so they followed a more conservative policy approach, Franz Joseph himself was also conservative as were most Austrian statesmen but due to external pressure reforms like Hohenwarts federal plan were never implemented
Russia perfectly shows that who you are allied to doesn't change your policies, just because they're allied to Britain and France absolutely does not mean that they will change their political system.
Now AH is allied to 2 liberal powers, who are also giving it a lot of money. And I think that combined with the state not having pressure from Germany or Russia, would lead to an AH that has a better relationship with it's minorities and it would change the deal with Hungary. I'm not going to say AH is going to federalize, that would be dreaming, this is still a overall conservative empire with a conservative monarch. Im just proposing a general better relationship with its minorities. So things like the Bohemian language law are pushed through.
They won't give any more concessions than they did IOTL, Franz Joseph is still Franz Joseph. And the AH Empire had probably the best relationship with its minorities of any state in Europe.
Now we have a significantly richer AH, with a Hungary that probably won't kneecap military budgets, and better relations with it's minorities. I think all this leads to a significantly stronger AH. Maybe not on the level of Germany but definitely stronger then France, they were already economically close to France in OTL, here they should be substantially richer and have more money for the army.
Despite how strong AH is on paper IOTL they twice were losing against the Russian Offensives and failed to defeat Serbia for much longer than it would be expected from a GP, doesn't seem to be like it's close to being stronger than France.
As for how a war would play out. It would be a close race but Germany would still lose IMO. I can Austria and France attempting their own Schlieffen plan, trying to beat Germany before Russia mobilizes, with a massive AH army to their south, I don't think Germany wins the battle of frontiers and likely gets pushed back into the Rhineland. Russia is stuck in the 1880s, and would prove a weak challenger, with Austria-Hungary taking up defensive positions in Poland and cutting most of Russo German trade. Russia with an industrial boom in OTL couldn't feed itself, this Russia certainly isn't feeding Germany. Romania and Bulgaria would join Germany because I think Serbia remain in alt AHs camp, so the Balkans would be Bulgaria+Romania vs buffed AH, Serbia, and the Ottomans. Italy isn't a factor here because they are a peninsula that is surrounded by the British Mediterranean fleet, the French Mediterranean fleet, and the Austrian fleet. They will be bombed to high heaven if they join Germany and they know it. Economically they would be dependent on Britain and France too. I think war would end around year 2 as Russia would economically collapse as it's 30 years behind everyone else, and Germany wouldn't be able to find the raw materials or food to keep fighting.
This is wrong on several points:
First France has no chance of occupying the Rhineland, while the Germans were effectively moving most of their army trough Belgium the French completely failed to take any ground in Alsace.
Second IOTL AH failed to defeat Serbia and was losing to Russia so beating the best army in Europe is basically impossible.
Third Russia while weak is not stuck in the 1880s, they'll still try to industrialize and while less successful than IOTL they aren't a house of cards.
Fourth Russo-German trade passes either from Russia to Germany and vice-versa or goes on seas both of which are completely outside AH's reach.
Fifth Serbia is still Russia's ally, there's no way they're giving up on the Yugoslav dream, ally themselves with their enemy and deny the alliance with their liberator.
Sixth you're completely ignoring the fact that Balkan politics would be butterflied and that if we assume OTL course of event Bulgaria is against Russia just as the Ottomans who will join France and Britain.
Seventh Italy while bad is still a GP and is very much not a non-factor, it may be a weak GP but it will divert a lot of Franco-Austrian resources.
Eight seeing the AH performance in the war IOTL they are the ones who will collapse before Germany and Russia do, they're fighting with literally every state on their borders outside of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
 
The most advantage for Germany is they no longer need to use large amounts of soilder to guard the vast Russia land they can use more troops against France.

Sure Austria has army but they are going to face full blunt of entire Russia army because Russia no longer need to watch out of Germany together with Serbia, Romania and maybe Italy if they can get the land they desire it didn't seem like Austria can survive.

After beating Austria, France becomes alone even with british help they cannot survive full might of Germany and Russia army.
 
Germany and Russia have a not in dispute 1815 Congress of Vienna boundary, no reason they couldn't just be Allies. Both don't want more Poles in their empire.
If Germany just guaranteed Austrias post 1866 boundaries, Austria wouldn't have much choice but to be the odd 3rd wheel in this German - Russian love fest, and be Allies with them both. Ultimately the Russia alliance guarantees German security because she is undefeatable with it. It should have been done,

However, for Germany, the alliance has costs, Germany can't do some the trade barriers on Russian goods she did, and her foreign policy with Britain becomes awkward (Russia only really feared the German army, which is useful when dealing with Britain, Sweeden, Ottomans, hard to play that card if your in an Alliance with them.

Those costs could have been accepted, if the Germans didn't get crosswise with Britain also.

And even getting crosswise with Britain too would have been ok, if Germany didn't DOW everybody in 1914.
 
Russia seams to be the stronger Ally (with or without hindsight). Russia could provide food to Germany against a possible British blockade.
Germans might think that but in reality the railway network does not allow all the food Germany would ever need to transit from Ukraine/Southern Russia to Germany, especially if the railway network is less developed ITTL.
Would a Germany-Russian alliance work in this period? Would it have won an alternate conflict around our WWI?

In terms of Alliances I would think the most likely would be France, UK, AH, v. Russia, Germany, Italy with the balkan countries splitting between both.
First due to different politics the Balkan Wars would probably be butterflied, if Italy is clearly leaning towards the Russo-German camp then it would likely be prevented from going to war over Libya and there would be more will from Britain and France to prevent any weakening of the Ottomans since they're now on opposite sides.

This would mean that WW1 starts with the 1912 borders, which makes the Balkans all ally against the Ottomans as soon as they join.

Russia while slightly weaker than IOTL is still a very significant power and is actually stronger in its offensives ITTL since they only have to care about AH and the Ottomans.

So WW1 starts somewhere in the 1910's for a reason or another, and Russia and Germany (and potentially Italy from the beginning) are against Britain France and AH, since AH is by all means weaker than France the initial efforts will be done against it and as even with German help AH was struggling to beat Serbia and was actively losing against Russia I would say they sort of have no chance especially as soon Serbia, Italy and Romania will join in to divide the spoils, all of this likely happening in less than a year.

The Ottomans might or might not join but if they do they'll just find themselves surrounded on all sides by everyone, with very little chances of victory.

France and GB would probably be forced at the negotiating table soon enough, the Germans are still in a position to launch offensives that would break their lines and still have plenty of time ahead of them and that is combined with an extra front with Italy.
 
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Why? The whole point of investing in Russia was because they were backwards, AH is not so no reason to loan as much money as they gave to Russia.

Russia perfectly shows that who you are allied to doesn't change your policies, just because they're allied to Britain and France absolutely does not mean that they will change their political system.

They won't give any more concessions than they did IOTL, Franz Joseph is still Franz Joseph. And the AH Empire had probably the best relationship with its minorities of any state in Europe.

Despite how strong AH is on paper IOTL they twice were losing against the Russian Offensives and failed to defeat Serbia for much longer than it would be expected from a GP, doesn't seem to be like it's close to being stronger than France.

This is wrong on several points:
First France has no chance of occupying the Rhineland, while the Germans were effectively moving most of their army trough Belgium the French completely failed to take any ground in Alsace.
Second IOTL AH failed to defeat Serbia and was losing to Russia so beating the best army in Europe is basically impossible.
Third Russia while weak is not stuck in the 1880s, they'll still try to industrialize and while less successful than IOTL they aren't a house of cards.
Fourth Russo-German trade passes either from Russia to Germany and vice-versa or goes on seas both of which are completely outside AH's reach.
Fifth Serbia is still Russia's ally, there's no way they're giving up on the Yugoslav dream, ally themselves with their enemy and deny the alliance with their liberator.
Sixth you're completely ignoring the fact that Balkan politics would be butterflied and that if we assume OTL course of event Bulgaria is against Russia just as the Ottomans who will join France and Britain.
Seventh Italy while bad is still a GP and is very much not a non-factor, it may be a weak GP but it will divert a lot of Franco-Austrian resources.
Eight seeing the AH performance in the war IOTL they are the ones who will collapse before Germany and Russia do, they're fighting with literally every state on their borders outside of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
Why couldn't AH get loans to boost industrialization in its much less developed eastern provinces, Galicia, Transylvania, Croatia? I don't think that's unreasonable. I never AH would change their political system, I said they would remain centralized, all I said is that they would be more willing to work with their minorities, which they also already were in OTL, but further so here. I said things like the Bohemian language law could pass, improving relations with the Czechs, who were the second most stubborn in the empire. AH lost to Serbia and Russia because of an army that had to beg for funding, and because of crucial mistakes made in the opening months. They played their cards very very wrong. In my TL, the army has significantly more money, and IMO is likely to fuck up because unlike in OTL where Franz Joseph authorized Potioreck to use B staffel for Serbia, instead of giving it to Conrad for Russia, for reasons I can only assume are because he thought Germany would back them up against Russia faster, things like that wouldn't happen here. Everybody likes to shit on AHs commanders but they were fine, they just never had the chance to shine because the empire lost 1,000,000 men in 1914 and was always on the backfoot because of it. Kovess, Eugen, Auffenberg, and that one croation guy on the Italian front whose name I can't remember, etc, were all fine commanders hindered by the hand they were played in the opening months.


As for your takes on how the war would play out. I'm not well read on tactics and army movements like some here are, so I can only give very basic armchair general musings. You probably know more then me. But, my TL assumes the army is significantly better funded, if so, I don't see why they can't take on Germany. Using their failures in OTL without the context of those failures is pretty unfair. I think Germany would be a tough situation early on while they wait for Russian mobilization. I don't see how Russian German trade happens in numbers large enough to sustain Germany if Poland gets occupied, Russia couldnt feed itself in OTL, why do you think they can feed Germany too here where they are less developed? I'm not ignoring the fact Balkan politics would be butterflied, that's the entire reason I said Serbia remains allied to my version of AH. An AH that has a better relations with it's slavs should have an easier time keeping an alliance with Serbia. And I think Bulgaria would be allied to Russia because they likely still want Macedonia here, and Im assuming they don't have it. I stand by my take that Italy is a non factor. How are they going to fight France and Austria when they are a peninsula and will get bombed to high heaven by the combined allied navies and also depend on Franco British trade to keep warm in the winter? Acting like AHs circumstances will be the exact same and they wouldn't do things like significant build up their military to be able to fight Germany makes no sense when Vienna and Budapest would probably be scared for their lives here. In OTL at least Hungarian politicians could rest easy not funding the military when they knew AH was allied to Germany, Romania and Italy, meaning most of their bases were covered. But here they are surrounded by enemies and if Vienna goes down they will lose everything too. Maybe some of the other things I'm saying are totally unreasonable but a significantly stronger, better funded military is not.
 
Why? the french and british investments (greatly encouraged if not arranged by the respective goverments) had rock hard strategically and that in a military sense only incentives.

What would be these incentives regarding A-H?
... without 'awakening' Berlin?
... and the rather schtrongk pro- and pangerman politics of A-H?

... again : Why?
Said 'liberal' partners had not a very splendid reputation or management of their own national minorities as i.e. the growing indipendence movements (or Home Rule) in Scotland and Ireland might hint at or the 'problematic' issue of independence of the welsh church?
Not to speak of the bonehard centralisation going in France sionce ... centuries with franconisation of whatever minorities there are/were (Bretones, Provencales, Occitanes, ...).

Actually ... IMHO the Habsburg empire as it stood alread in 1914 was MUCH more federalised and offered it minorities much more autonomy in its constitutional setup than each of said potential 'liberal' parnters.
They won't be any help for the double monarchy but rather leed to even stronger and further centrifugal effects (not to speak of the most unliberal 'goverment' there was : Hungary under Tisza).


Nevertheless an interesting though experiment :)
(maby more on your economical musings later ... maybe)
For the investments, I don't see the 2 nations investing in their enemies, and if France loses AH as an ally they will be completely isolated on the continent, so it's in their best interest to have a strong ally. And that's why I think they'd be giving Vienna loans. I don't see what Berlin could do about this considering they were still busy investing in themselves, couldn't really give money to Russia because of that, and couldn't do anything about Franco British loans to Austria without starting a war out of nowhere. I know very well the French and British did not care for their own minorities, but that doesn't mean they won't be hypocrites on the world stage and tell someone else to do better like most nations do. Idk that part was me just trying to find a way for Vienna to force Budapest into accepting full male suffrage, but that can also happen because Vienna is scared out of its mind for its existence and forces Hungary to give more rights to it's minorities to avoid any other troubles. I also know that the Habsburgs were already much nicer to their minorities, but that was mostly in the Austrian half. In Hungary you had thinks like the Aponnyi(however you spell his name) laws shutting down schools that didn't teach in Hungarian, and Croatia while technically a federal state of Hungary having very little power. Those are things I was suggesting could be changed in this TL once Hungary is forced to accept full male suffrage. I don't think it would increase independence movements because nearly all minorities ATM thought their fates with Vienna were much better then some other country, and even the loudest voices against the government just wanted reform in the system. The loudest anti Vienna voice in Prague was just asking for Franz Joseph to recognize Bohemias historical rights. Most of these states have been with the Habsburgs for centuries so any nationalism they get from getting more rights would be intertwined with the Habsburg state.
 
The most logical war plan of the Berlin-St.Petersburg coalition or "Willy and Nicky against the world" would certainly be to defeat Austria-Hungary first. The Austrian war planning would be hard-pressed to defend against such a formidable combination, so one could argue that whoever is in charge (and he hardly cannot be less suited for the task than Konrad) will focus on defensive deployment and fortifications of the Austro-German border. The British, for their part, might want to play a peripheral strategy and the BEF might well be sent to Trieste to help Austria out instead, since there is only so much room for forces in Alsace-Lorraine. Meanwhile France has every insentive to attack there as per OTL.

The position of the Balkan states, the Ottoman Empire and Italy are interesting. Italy is likely to remain neutral due the stranglehold Britain has over the Italian vital overseas coal trade. Meanwhile the Ottomans are both afraid of Russian designs for the Straits, and eager to get Bosnia back from the Austrians unless the TTL WW1 starts without the Balkan Wars as a prelude.
 
With Russia allied to Germany there never would've been a WWI. Germany wouldn't have fealt encircled and thus no need to have a war "now" before Russia grows any stronger and becomes unbeatable and without Russia as an ally France would've been a lot less bellicose, swallowed its' pride and accepted the loss of AL and concentrated on the development of its' colonial empire.
 
Why couldn't AH get loans to boost industrialization in its much less developed eastern provinces, Galicia, Transylvania, Croatia? I don't think that's unreasonable.
The reason they gave that many loans to Russia was because it was backwards and because some things (such as the railway network) needed to be done fast, AH isn't in that position so no reason to give them loans, it's just as asking why doesn't Britain give loans to France to develop Brittany? Because they already have most industries they would need, no reason to go develop that region in particular since there's not that much resources to exploit.
Plus Galicia was useful as an agricultural land (something like a third of AH's production) and to extract the oil reserves there.
I never AH would change their political system, I said they would remain centralized, all I said is that they would be more willing to work with their minorities, which they also already were in OTL, but further so here.
"More willing to work with their minorities" and "Remain centralized" is kind of contradictory, minorities want autonomy so you have to decentralize. Anyways I don't see why you think they would be more willing to work with minorities ITTL.
I said things like the Bohemian language law could pass, improving relations with the Czechs, who were the second most stubborn in the empire.
I have to say I don't understand why you're saying that, to the best of my knowledge the Czechs weren't particularly restless and even if what you said is true just because they allied themselves with France and GB doesn't make them more inclined to do this.
AH lost to Serbia and Russia because of an army that had to beg for funding, and because of crucial mistakes made in the opening months.
Which will still be done by the very incompetent army leadership, and the funding problem is far from solved ITTL, adding more loans will only make the financial situation worse.
In my TL, the army has significantly more money, and IMO is un?likely to fuck up because unlike in OTL where Franz Joseph authorized Potioreck to use B staffel for Serbia, instead of giving it to Conrad for Russia, for reasons I can only assume are because he thought Germany would back them up against Russia faster, things like that wouldn't happen here.
If you take more loans you have less money, and AH has to fight the Russians and the Germans on top of Romania, Italy and Serbia who are all likely to join at some point, AH's military is not known for its incredible performance against the Russians and everything would indicate it would perform even worse against the Germans, military equipment and leadership have not changed enough for it to change something.
And Franz Joseph was far from being the only reason of why Austria performed so poorly in 1914.
Everybody likes to shit on AHs commanders but they were fine, they just never had the chance to shine because the empire lost 1,000,000 men in 1914 and was always on the backfoot because of it.
Look at the Brusilov Offensive, AH's commanders are overoptimistic and incompetent. Or look at their loss of Galicia in 1914 and their failure to bring down Serbia for so long, their command is very incompetent, the only place where they mostly did fine was against the Italians who also did not have ta brilliant leadership.
And 1m men is AH's losses in the frontlines in the ENTIRE war, not in 1914.
Kovess, Eugen, Auffenberg, and that one croation guy on the Italian front whose name I can't remember, etc, were all fine commanders hindered by the hand they were played in the opening months.
All sides in the conflict had OK commanders, the question is how many and where were they in the command chain, AH did not lose the war because of losses in 1914, it lost because it failed to beat its enemies after it had recovered from 1914 losses.
As for your takes on how the war would play out. I'm not well read on tactics and army movements like some here are, so I can only give very basic armchair general musings. You probably know more then me. But, my TL assumes the army is significantly better funded, if so, I don't see why they can't take on Germany
Because Germany basically has the best army in Europe? Germany managed to do very well with a two front war IOTL while supplying AH with what it needed, here they're only fighting AH and France (since GB cannot send that much troops in France if they only have Alsace as a battleground) and AH is much less able to recover from losses like the Russian ones and cannot retreat for as long as the Russians did.
I think Germany would be a tough situation early on while they wait for Russian mobilization. I don't see how Russian German trade happens in numbers large enough to sustain Germany if Poland gets occupied, Russia couldnt feed itself in OTL, why do you think they can feed Germany too here where they are less developed?
There's no way AH is occupying Poland, they'll be surrounded on all sides and they should go on the offensive? Germany still has a much faster mobilization than AH and Russia even with half the speed of OTL has more than enough troops to beat AH.
I'm not ignoring the fact Balkan politics would be butterflied, that's the entire reason I said Serbia remains allied to my version of AH
Serbia and AH were enemies for a long time, just because there aren't Balkan wars doesn't mean they'll be friendly to AH.
An AH that has a better relations with it's slavs should have an easier time keeping an alliance with Serbia
Serbia wanted to expand there, it doesn't matter how well they treat the Southern Slavs, and Serbians in Bosnia still very much want to be a part of Serbia regardless of how well they are treated.
I stand by my take that Italy is a non factor
Why exactly? The Italians while not good, diverted a lot of resources from other fronts and simply existing as a threatening power is enough to divert resources that might be diverted elsewhere to Italy.
How are they going to fight France and Austria when they are a peninsula and will get bombed to high heaven by the combined allied navies and also depend on Franco British trade to keep warm in the winter?
Just because they'll suffer doesn't mean they're a non-factor, they would be weaker than IOTL but not inexistant.
Acting like AHs circumstances will be the exact same and they wouldn't do things like significant build up their military to be able to fight Germany makes no sense when Vienna and Budapest would probably be scared for their lives here
They will be as scared for their lives as IOTL, building up the military is something every state with a military has always done.
Maybe some of the other things I'm saying are totally unreasonable but a significantly stronger, better funded military is not.
The military being better funded doesn't change the fact that it never fought in the last what 50 years? Commanders are still sons of the nobility who are extremely incompetent and better equipment is sort of irrelevant when your industrial heartland is occupied by the enemy.
With Russia allied to Germany there never would've been a WWI. Germany wouldn't have felt encircled and thus no need to have a war "now" before Russia grows any stronger and becomes unbeatable and without Russia as an ally France would've been a lot less bellicose, swallowed its' pride and accepted the loss of AL and concentrated on the development of its' colonial empire.
France would've never given up on A-L.
And don't you think Britain, France and, especially, AH will feel like they need to act before Russia industrializes further?
WW1 didn't start only because Germany wanted to go to war with Russia, it started because everyone wanted to fight someone, the German fear of Russia only somewhat fastened the process.
 
The reason they gave that many loans to Russia was because it was backwards and because some things (such as the railway network) needed to be done fast, AH isn't in that position so no reason to give them loans, it's just as asking why doesn't Britain give loans to France to develop Brittany? Because they already have most industries they would need, no reason to go develop that region in particular since there's not that much resources to exploit.
Plus Galicia was useful as an agricultural land (something like a third of AH's production) and to extract the oil reserves there.
Ok, this makes sense, I'll cede my point on the economics. I still AHs economy should be stronger, but not because of the loans now. Galicia made up 1/3rd of Austria's agricultural output, not Austria-Hungary. Hungary was/is one of the bread baskets of Europe so that agriculture in Galicia isn't really needed, if Vienna wanted to do something like promote polish nationalism under a Habsburg aegis, they could go and develop Galicia to exploit its oil reserves and get a large middle class of polish speakers to boost the economy. But they don't even need polish nationalism, they would likely just develop it for better defenses against Russia.
"More willing to work with their minorities" and "Remain centralized" is kind of contradictory, minorities want autonomy so you have to decentralize. Anyways I don't see why you think they would be more willing to work with minorities ITTL.
Its not. If you looked at the rest of what I said on that topic, I said that historians like Christopher Clark(and Alexander Watson) have said that the Austrian system was workable under multiple ministers pre WW1. And had it continued in peacetime, it could have developed into multiple guarantees(guarantees on language and culture and the like which already existed in practice, did not exist officially which bothered a lot of nationalists) for the minorities that would've/should've dealt with any remaining issues with the centralized system. This was already happening pre WW1, except the guarantees were being worked out on a case by case basis instead of having them in writing in the constitution. I said that all I'm proposing is, those guarantees get pushed forward for whatever reason, maybe because the empire is surrounded and wants as few problems as possible, really it doesn't matter, leading to the central governments having the support of the people. More importantly that support results in more military funding as its easier to pass votes on it(specifically in the Hungarian half because in the Austrian half Franz Joseph could rule absolutely via emergency decrees).
I have to say I don't understand why you're saying that, to the best of my knowledge the Czechs weren't particularly restless and even if what you said is true just because they allied themselves with France and GB doesn't make them more inclined to do this.
Because the Bohemian language law was never passed, Czech political leaders stopped working with the central government and made parliament essentially useless for the 15 or so years of the Empire because they wouldn't vote on anything without the language law being passed first.
Which will still be done by the very incompetent army leadership, and the funding problem is far from solved ITTL, adding more loans will only make the financial situation worse.
Hate to break it to you, but I don't think the army is incompetent, Potioreck is responsible for the failures early on as he personally asked Franz Joseph for B staffel so he could go on a revenge trip for FF in Serbia, since B staffel wasn't in Galicia as the Austrian war plan for Russia+Balkans said it should be, A staffel was severely outnumbered and outgunned, and when B staffel was finally redirected to Galicia, it had already taken serious damage in Serbia because it was led by Potioreck, and just got caught up in A staffels retreat. Leading to the loss of 1 million men and Austrias best officers. This was not the army being incompetent, this was a disaster brought about by one guy who does not represent the entire general staff.
All sides in the conflict had OK commanders, the question is how many and where were they in the command chain, AH did not lose the war because of losses in 1914, it lost because it failed to beat its enemies after it had recovered from 1914 losses.
AH lost because it was fighting on 3 fronts, and starving while doing it. Its recovery from 1914 was gimped because the best officers the army had were lost in 1914. Brand new officers who did not know how to work the multi ethnic system as well as the captured officers were brought in. The moment AH recovered from one problem, another one rose up, They recovered from 1914 to immediately fight a new front, they recovered from Brusilov and had to fight a new front. OTL AH is just the unluckiest thing you could think of.
Look at the Brusilov Offensive, AH's commanders are overoptimistic and incompetent. Or look at their loss of Galicia in 1914 and their failure to bring down Serbia for so long, their command is very incompetent, the only place where they mostly did fine was against the Italians who also did not have ta brilliant leadership.
And 1m men is AH's losses in the frontlines in the ENTIRE war, not in 1914.
Yeah lets look at the Brusilov offensive. Here, Austria-Hungary was outnumbered around 2:1, fighting the best general the Russians had, and they were nearing the limits on their manpower while Russia had men for days. Oh and they had an ongoing offensive in Italy eating up what manpower they did have left, and they were without their best officers. Their soldiers probably ate turnips for breakfast too. Yup this offensive is totally representative of the quality of the army. I already explained how Galicia was lost. Their command is fine. Even Conrad for all the shit he gets, developed a decent war plan against Russia and Serbia, and led the Asiago offensive against Italy well enough before the Brusilov offensive started. And no, they did lose 1,000,000 men in 1914. Wikipedia counts 1.4 million dead on the military side, 1.7-2 million dead in total, and 3.6 million military wounded. Wikipedia also counts 324,000-420,000 causalities for the battle of Galicia in 1914, 273,000 for the serbian campaign, and 473,000 casualities in the Carpathian front but that one started in January 1915, so maybe the better wording would be "1 million casualities early in the war), but 1914 still runs you into the 6-700,000+ range.
There's no way AH is occupying Poland, they'll be surrounded on all sides and they should go on the offensive? Germany still has a much faster mobilization than AH and Russia even with half the speed of OTL has more than enough troops to beat AH.
Yes, they should go on the offensive because the backwards Russia without any loans is going to take a damn long time to get any good number of troops to the frontline. Definitely longer then the 6 weeks in OTL, Germany mobilized around 3.5 million men on the outbreak of war, France a little less than that, and AH 1.7 million. These numbers are from Ring of Steel. So no, Germany "even half the speed of OTL has more than enough troops to beat AH". It is not out of the realm of reason, I think likely even, that France and AH don't come up with their own Schlieffen plan to beat Germany before Russia mobilizes, they'll have longer then 6 weeks this TL too. And I don't think Germany is mobilizing faster then AH, I'd be damned if AH doesn't invest in some way to mobilize as fast as Germany, building more railroads helps for sure, their system was the second largest in Europe in OTL not counting Russia, but it wasn't as dense as Germanys, and I can definitely see them making it denser and working on army organization to provide for a larger and quicker mobilization time. They're definitely mobilizing more then 1.7 million men in this TL, because the army should have a lot more money and therefore be larger, and faster too. So I don't see why Germany isn't in some trouble while it waits for Russia to mobilize. Even if you assume AH doesn't make its army larger, which I think is a big stretch considering they'll know pre war they have to fight on multiple fronts, and just assume they modernize it more, Germany is still outnumbered. France + AHs numbers in OTL on outbreak are bigger then Germanys. An occupation of Poland also seems likely against the backward Russian army. Maybe Russia isn't stuck in 1880 in this TL, but they are definitely 20 or so years behind. The devastation AH suffered to modern artillery in OTL will happen to Russia. And even if they don't occupy Poland, Russia still can't feed Germany, even if they were as industrialized as OTL, Russia still can't do it.
Serbia wanted to expand there, it doesn't matter how well they treat the Southern Slavs, and Serbians in Bosnia still very much want to be a part of Serbia regardless of how well they are treated.
This is a fair point, but it ignores other butterflies and doesn't really reflect why Serbia broke with AH. Serbia broke because Austria treated them like absolute shit, which made the ruling dynasty at the time very unpopular, leading to them being overthrown, etc. If Austria is isolated, they don't want to lose their only ally in balkans, hence I can see them treating Serbia better, like a partner instead of a total puppet(emphasis on total). If that happens, it makes any removal of the pro Habsburg dynasty much less likely, and continuing on the track of AH treats Serbia better, it would make a lot of sense that they direct Serbian nationalism towards Macedonia, and they could work out an arrangement for Bosnia too. What led to Serbian opinion of AH going from bad to violent after the dynasty overthrow was the annexation of Bosnia, if Austria treats them better, directs nationalism at the Balkans, and figures out an arrangement for Bosnia(Serbian annexation but Austrian military occupation should make both states happy as Austria just wanted it to protect croatia.
Why exactly? The Italians while not good, diverted a lot of resources from other fronts and simply existing as a threatening power is enough to divert resources that might be diverted elsewhere to Italy.
For reasons I stated right after that sentence.
Just because they'll suffer doesn't mean they're a non-factor, they would be weaker than IOTL but not inexistant.
No, they will be inexistant. Only suicidal Italian government would enter a war against France, Britain and Austria. Italy will not just suffer, Italy will be destroyed and any politician in Rome will know that. Any coastal city will be at risk of being leveled, all international trade will be shut off, and I've said already Italy depended on Franco British trade. Its not just the coast too, any long range naval gun would be more then capable of raining hellfire on the inner citys as well. How is Italy going to mobilize when its northern rail system is destroyed by bombardment? In OTL Austrias navy was able to seriously damage Italian infrastructure as they had been expecting a declaration of war and the navy was in position to bomb Italy, this significantly slowed Italian mobilization and was a massive factor as to Austria surviving the initial offensives by Italy. So yeah, Italy is a no go. Only a suicidal government is going to war.
They will be as scared for their lives as IOTL, building up the military is something every state with a military has always done.
Must be why the Austro Hungarian army has a reputation for being underfunded, and why the Hungarian half always shut down any idea of funding the army. Austria-Hungary in OTL did not build up their military, here they will because the Hungarians finally feel threatened.
The military being better funded doesn't change the fact that it never fought in the last what 50 years? Commanders are still sons of the nobility who are extremely incompetent and better equipment is sort of irrelevant when your industrial heartland is occupied by the enemy.
Thats fine, the military of Germany hadn't fought in 50 years either and they did just fine, that also applies to France and Britain. German commanders were also sons of nobility. And I already explained why AHs commanders aren't so incompetent. The industrial heartland isn't going anywhere either.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
@Bones101 - you don’t have to cede point on economics. @EasternRomanEmpire is *way*overestimating the development gap between the the Russian empire and the Hungarian half of the dual monarchy, Bosnia, and Galicia. It had plenty of developing to do, infrastructure to build and the Habsburg empire as a whole was Europe’s fastest growing economy pre-WWI. There certainly was money to be made there and return on investment. Certainly not *as many* kilometers of railway track were required to be lain down as in Russia, but quite a great deal. Same for telegraph and telephone wire and electrical power transmission lines.
 
@Bones101 - you don’t have to cede point on economics. @EasternRomanEmpire is *way*overestimating the development gap between the the Russian empire and the Hungarian half of the dual monarchy, Bosnia, and Galicia. It had plenty of developing to do, infrastructure to build and the Habsburg empire as a whole was Europe’s fastest growing economy pre-WWI. There certainly was money to be made there and return on investment. Certainly not *as many* kilometers of railway track were required to be lain down as in Russia, but quite a great deal. Same for telegraph and telephone wire and electrical power transmission lines.
Thanks for bringing that up it reminds me of something, I'll ping the guy I was the discussion with so he can see it too @EasternRomanEmpire when the allies were debating the treaty of Trianon, the British commented that state of the Hungarian peasant had essentially not changed since the middle ages. And it wasn't much better for the rest too, public mandated education stopped at 5th grade, the average person was purposefully left uninformed to further enhance the aristocracys hold on Parliament, around 2 million ethnic Hungarians left from 1890-1900, those who stayed behind depended on payments from their family members abroad, the middle class was Austrian immigrants who came to fill the labor gap. This significantly stifles the economy. And even with this, AH in OTL was still 97% the economic size of France. The reason I'm bringing this up is because if Austria forces Hungary to accept full male suffrage, which I'm adamant they will do be it for or one reason or another, Hungarys people can actually advance. Maybe we don't get that mass exodus of people now, maybe now an actual Hungarian middle class can actually exist. Which means the Kingdom of Hungary will make significantly larger economic advancements then in OTL, so this reinforces my idea that AHs economy will be much better off then in OTL. It'll definitely be bigger then Frances. So my TLs Hungary, will get the same, full industrial boom that it was denied in OTL. So as a whole, AHs economy could be anywhere from a low ball of 120 to 170% larger then Frances depending on just how big this "miracle on the Danube" gets. As I said in my original post, the economic potential of the Habsburg empire is severely underrated and was cut short by WW1, which stopped it from hitting its full stride as Hungary and Galicia didn't get the chance to fully industrialize before WW1 hit. All this will help my other ideas for the war effort. Also a larger military budget tends to drive a countries industrialization further.
 
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The most advantage for Germany is they no longer need to use large amounts of soilder to guard the vast Russia land they can use more troops against France.

Sure Austria has army but they are going to face full blunt of entire Russia army because Russia no longer need to watch out of Germany together with Serbia, Romania and maybe Italy if they can get the land they desire it didn't seem like Austria can survive.

After beating Austria, France becomes alone even with british help they cannot survive full might of Germany and Russia army.
Without France, Russia is lacking the massive investments that propelled it from a state in 1790 to a state in 1914. Russia is going to be around 15-20 years behind everyone else industrially. Now I'm sure everybody would love to say Germany would replace those loans, but Germany was busy investing in itself at the time. Financial incentive was one of the reasons Russia didn't pursue the German alliance after Caprivi didn't sign the alliance again when it was up for renewal. So Russia will not mobilize its army fast enough to cover Germany, they are going to take a lot longer then the 6 weeks they took in OTL. Those French loans could also now head to Austria, resulting in a stronger AH, with a better funded military among other things I explained in my own response to this thread you can read. Basically, I think Germany is going to have a really tough start of the war as its outnumbered by Austria and France, who have a serious shot at knocking it out if it goes perfectly for them. But assuming it doesn't, I think Germany would get economically choked within 2 years because Russia in OTL couldn't feed itself, so it sure as hell isnt' feeding Germany too while also being 15-20 years behind. So Germany would starve faster then they did in OTL. Italy shouldn't join the war because they are surrounded by the Franco, British and Austrian navies, they are a peninsula, which means they are going to get bombed to high heaven if they join the war, they also depend on Franco British trade a lot. A stronger Austria(much stronger IMO) should be hold its lines against any balkan enemies and bully Russia until Germany starves and economically collapses.
 
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