Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
I must have missed the explanation for this, but the submarines HMS Regulus & Rainbow were sunk in 1940, and Rover was in Singapore under repairs that had to be completed later in Bombay. Only Regent could be there in an operational capacity, and she would be missed in the Mediterranean.
IIRC, the survival these vessels were by authors decision at the very start, used as a POD in this story.
That's what I remember. There was a brief discussion about the R boats being more useful in
SE Asia, than in the Med.
Yup, never sent to the Med so never in a position to be sunk. Can also be assumed they had a bit more TLC than OTL so in a little better shape hence Rover being available instead of the Dockyard.
Is there a particular title for that? I can't seem to find anything but Leutze's bio of Hart.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Steamboy, yes the Light Squadron is operating under the command of Admiral Phillips as a screen for Force Z, but it is an independent formation, see https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-24248165. As for it being a polyglot force, yes your quite right, it's about the best I can do realistically without stripping ships from other areas. Things will improve here as once we kick off.
Regards the Dutch destroyers, yes they are quite useful, comparable to the British E class. The aircraft handling facilities have been removed as was historically, but also a British ASDIC set is being installed in the class and training given. The two Admiralen class ships present with the Light Squadron are proficient ay ASW with their ASDIC, see https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-23653298. Your quite right with your observations on the Tromp.
And you've noted the addition of radar in this force. In my TL the radar suites are working fine, although a knock on this timeline is I haven't adequately covered off why that should be so, other than to mention that a RAF radar maintenance unit has been given time to address any problems, very poor I know, I overlooked this issue, and it's too late to change, so we'll have to sail on (pun intended) with this fantasy!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi GarethC, that's a good question. I don't have a fixed date for them, but can give an estimate of what was thought,
HMS Mauritius was handed over to the Singapore Naval Base for a renewal of her fire main (she had installed an experimental system which corroded badly) on the 7 Nov 41. I have her works planned to be finished by mid February 42, until the Japanese have something to say about it.
HMS Isis was handed over on 13 Oct41, for extensive repair on bomb damage, her return is later, mid to late March 42
HMAS Vendetta was handed over on 12 Nov 41, for a major refit. I'm really unclear on what this was, it could have been like her sister HMAS Vampire, restoring her to a destroyer capable vessel, in which case she needed about six months, or what historically happened, and she had boilers removed and became an escort vessel which again could be six months. Obviously her work was disturbed by the fall of Singapore, the ship being towed to Australia where she was then refitted, but parts, labour and ship building capacity all impacted on her refit time.
Depends on how the defence of the Singapore Naval Base goes, so both Mauritius and Isis may remain and complete their repairs, but I think Vendetta will have to go to a more peaceful location to get the TLC she needs.
There is also the fact that a couple of the destroyers accompanying Force Z also needed some dockyard TLC, Jupiter required work to correct her stability when she had full tanks, I'm unsure how long or what work this would take, historically I think she was in for 3-4 weeks. And Encounter needed a propellor bush renewing, about 10 days work. Both, in my TL, soldier on.
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Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Driftless, they were removed from Hong Kong, asset stripping, and sent to Singapore, where they are used in a coastal defence role. They are currently on the eastern coast of Malaya.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Belisarius II, I'm sure your not the only one, I wrote about that nearly two and a half years ago!, see https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-22672284
Per the plan and contingency in effect as of 5 Dec 41, yes, or maybe. Remember, even though it was thought possible, the PH attack that the IJN pulled off was not seen as probable. and most intel had the bulk of the IJN preparing for their southern thrust with some forces in the Mandates. The big unknown was the location of the CVs. I highly doubt without those assets being located Kimmel executes his plan as written. As plan 1A-R5 in WPPac-46, and the contingency of 5 Dec was concocted, TF-2 and 3, after the reconnaissance of the Marshalls, were to join. This may have taken a few weeks after J-Day (the day war with Japan started) which would have allowed Saratoga and a few other ships not in extended overhaul on the West Coast to join. The cruisers of TF-3 should have been back with their parent commands after convoy escort. Kimmel never intended the slow BBs to lead the way. They were a covering force hanging out at Pt. TARE (16N, 177E - basically in the middle of a triangle between Johnson Island, Wake and the Marshalls) that Halsey was to fall back on after his raid. If a portion of the IJN was drawn off from the southern thrust, it was hoped they could be lured onto Pyes's BBs at that point. Without intel of the location of Nagumo, and all this assumes no PH attack, I believe they hold off for more definite information.
The benefits of stabilization were considerable, but it's even more important to note the differences in middle altitude or middle distance efficacy. The lesser muzzle velocity of the HV pom-pom compared to the Bofors L/60, and particularly the much lower muzzle velocity of the LV pom-pom, made them much less effective against dive and level bombers approaching at middle altitudes or torpedo bombers just beginning their runs, because it took critically longer for shells to get to altitude or out to range. Good gunners could be just as effective if the attacking aircraft flew straight, predictable courses. If they didn't, though, both HV and LV pom-poms didn't become effective until much closer.
There was relatively little difference in efficacy at closer ranges--one hit from any of the three gun-types was almost always enough to bring down a single engine aircraft, and often twin engine planes as well...but the Bofors was a much more effective defensive weapon against attackers that used their maneuverability on the way in.
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Talk about thinking outside "The Box". Using Army medium bombers flying off of USN carriers. Outside of the water element even.
The USN was aware of the potential of a PH raid by the IJN. The Japanese were one better. They set an early warning picket line, in anticipation of a raid by
American carrier(s) on Japan proper. However, even with hours of early warning lead time, the Japanese efforts proved lacking.
The element of chance is there. Even when you're at the top of your game. The best laid plans of Blue or Orange go astray. You change one vector and the victor
becomes the victim
If memory serves me, there is a H-gram that describes the "Doolittle Raid". It was a USN submariner who comes up with the concept behind "The Doolittle Raid".
Talk about thinking outside "The Box". Using Army medium bombers flying off of USN carriers. Outside of the water element even.
The USN was aware of the potential of a PH raid by the IJN. The Japanese were one better. They set an early warning picket line, in anticipation of a raid by
American carrier(s) on Japan proper. However, even with hours of early warning lead time, the Japanese efforts proved lacking.
The element of chance is there. Even when you're at the top of your game. The best laid plans of Blue or Orange go astray. You change one vector and the victor
becomes the victim
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Yes, your right it was thinking outside the box. What has always amazed me is the TF didn't sight the sampan until it was 400 yards from a ship and had already sent a radio message. A 700 mile out picket line was fine, they expected carrier planes needed to get within 200 miles. 700 miles out even for B-25's was really too far to then fly on to China. Still the Japanese knew the planes came from a carrier but savagely punished the Chinese. The Japanese killed more Chinese in retaliation for the Doolittle Raid than they killed in the rape of Nanjing. That was one reason the Americans decided not to do that again. Of course, later in the war the U.S. did bomb Japan from Chinese bases and I don't know if the Japanese massacred civilians in retaliation.
Wasn't it something horrific like 250,000 killed in occupied China?
Yes, ADM Francis Low, Ops O to King when he was Commander, Patrol Force, CinCLant, Cominch , and his COS for 10th Fleet, when he basically ran it. Describes this in his unpublished reminisces of FADM King at the NWC. He's also the one that got berated as a CDR while Flag Duty Officer during the famous incident oft repeated on TEXAS, although Buell never mentions him by name. It would take the drama out of the incident if readers knew who he was.
The IJN was doctrinally superior and, IN GENERAL, slightly better on an individual level early on due to so many highly skilled naval aviators being sent to the Training Command as instructors in 1941. But the learning curve was steep, thanks in large part to the early raids in 1942, and later results speak for themselves. Fog, luck, chance, initiative and friction can never be dismissed once the operation makes contact with the opposing force. This is where superior judgement and better situational awareness pay huge dividends.
Yes, I think so. It was a savage response to a pin prick attack. The Doolittle Raid was nothing compared to some of Japan's raids on Chinese cities.
Sekhmet_D
Kicked
They did so in response to the Chinese providing safe haven and safe passage for Doolittle and his fliers after the mission, not for enabling the mission itself.