As I've said, I'm far from an expert on this campaign, but what I have read and listened to, one theme runs throughout: Piss poor command and control and piss poor communications compounding the first. The British/Dominion forces seemed to largely solve the first issue (in their own way) by 1943, but seemed to never quite solved the latter issue (though the situation did improve) right up to the end.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Too bad, he had a shot at giving the Japanese a real fight, at the least. Likely still would've lost (impossible to win against an enemy that can hit anywhere, and you have to defend everywhere), but done so more slowly, fought with more skill, and inflicted greater losses on the Japanese.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Oh My God 😱, Diesel, that's an hour of my life wasted and I won't be getting it back!
Pull yourself together Coxy, its only a bottle of wine, you don't even like the stuff, its the wife that drinks that, you'd rather have a beer!
Oh great Fatboy, you're a real big help, so what do I do, edit out the wine and have Gort drink a pint of Fosters, or even worse Castlemaine XXXX, yer that's really classy!
No you idiot, pick another wine!
What like one of the wife's Rioja's or that French stuff, Chateaunerf du Pape, that she goes on about?
No another Australian one, Coxy.
But Fatboy, I don't know of another Australian one I can use, I'll say 19 crimes, and Diesel will laugh and say its only been around for five years, and make an even bigger fool of myself!
No Coxy, get clever, reply to Diesels post, say thank you for pointing out my error, and ask him nicely if he can suggest a suitable wine, and give it a twist, don't forget to mention it has to go with the lamb!
What wine?, as in red meat red wine Fatboy?, got it, Fatboy you're a genius, I'll do it now.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Diesal, thank you for that, I really struggled with the wine, but once I had it in my head they were drinking wine, I had to find a bottle. are you able to suggest an alternative for me, preferably something suitable for the lamb so Lord Gort doesn't kick off.
MWI 41101713 Horses with Wheels
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Friday 17 October;
Probyn’s Horse had sailed from India, arriving at the beginning of September, a cavalry regiment that had been mechanised, to be used in the divisional reconnaissance role. Well, they’d had been given some training of driving and maintaining vehicles, although a number of their best people had been creamed off to form new units. But driving a lightweight truck with excellent vision on a parade ground or across the dry plains of India was a very different thing to Malaya. The Marmon-Herrington Mk III Armoured Car, with a Vickers machine gun and Canadian built Boys anti- tank rifle installed in the turret, and a 3-man crew was their new mount. But even with the armoured visor raised, visibility still wasn’t as good as the light truck, and Malayan roads were a lot more challenging.
The first squadron to be equipped had so far managed to damage 13 of their 16 cars, indeed two were write offs, while another five were having to be replaced, needing extensive repairs before they could be returned to service. Clearly the Regiment needed further and better training. The RASC driving schools were fully booked, and unable to respond quickly, and the Indian drivers needed more than that. The answer was the Australian 8th Light Horse (the Divisional Cavalry Regt for the 8th Division), who generously supplied a number of experienced drivers and car commanders to begin training them, some almost completely from scratch.
They had been relocated to Camp Mantin, just north of Seremban, which had now become a de-facto Reconnaissance Regt training camp, with a supporting RAOC unit based in Seremban. Watson’s Horse were expected to arrive in late November, as the second Indian Divisional Recon Regt, and it was now planned that they would come to Mantin for training as well.
But all that concerned the Daffadar, that morning was that his patrol of two armoured cars, were following his instructions, as he directed, with his head out of the top of the turret of the first car. He called a halt, and then waved a flag to the second Marmon, 50 yards back, which firstly pulled over to the right-hand side of the narrow road to give a field of fire past his car. A trooper emerged from a side door, tommy gun in hand and ran stooped, up to the back of the Daffadar’s car. A second trooper left the lead car, again with a tommy gun, the pair of them advanced, one each side of the road towards the bridge. The Daffadar stood hunched behind the Vickers, watching them.
They reached the bridge and both checked their own side for anything suspicious. Individually they raised an arm, thumbs up. Slowly the first car creeped forward towards the small road bridge, the turret swinging left and right, checking the ground ahead. All looked good, so he crossed, and then stopped about 50 yards on. Satisfied he flagged the other car forward, one trooper ran up to his car and climbed in, the other waiting at the bridge for the second car as it advanced.
The two Australians stood by the bridge, watching. The sergeant, looked at his Lieutenant, the officer looked back and said “Well done Joe, their getting it, let’s see how they get on turning around without help, and we’ll do it again with the other car first.”
Probyn’s Horse had sailed from India, arriving at the beginning of September, a cavalry regiment that had been mechanised, to be used in the divisional reconnaissance role. Well, they’d had been given some training of driving and maintaining vehicles, although a number of their best people had been creamed off to form new units. But driving a lightweight truck with excellent vision on a parade ground or across the dry plains of India was a very different thing to Malaya. The Marmon-Herrington Mk III Armoured Car, with a Vickers machine gun and Canadian built Boys anti- tank rifle installed in the turret, and a 3-man crew was their new mount. But even with the armoured visor raised, visibility still wasn’t as good as the light truck, and Malayan roads were a lot more challenging.
The first squadron to be equipped had so far managed to damage 13 of their 16 cars, indeed two were write offs, while another five were having to be replaced, needing extensive repairs before they could be returned to service. Clearly the Regiment needed further and better training. The RASC driving schools were fully booked, and unable to respond quickly, and the Indian drivers needed more than that. The answer was the Australian 8th Light Horse (the Divisional Cavalry Regt for the 8th Division), who generously supplied a number of experienced drivers and car commanders to begin training them, some almost completely from scratch.
They had been relocated to Camp Mantin, just north of Seremban, which had now become a de-facto Reconnaissance Regt training camp, with a supporting RAOC unit based in Seremban. Watson’s Horse were expected to arrive in late November, as the second Indian Divisional Recon Regt, and it was now planned that they would come to Mantin for training as well.
But all that concerned the Daffadar, that morning was that his patrol of two armoured cars, were following his instructions, as he directed, with his head out of the top of the turret of the first car. He called a halt, and then waved a flag to the second Marmon, 50 yards back, which firstly pulled over to the right-hand side of the narrow road to give a field of fire past his car. A trooper emerged from a side door, tommy gun in hand and ran stooped, up to the back of the Daffadar’s car. A second trooper left the lead car, again with a tommy gun, the pair of them advanced, one each side of the road towards the bridge. The Daffadar stood hunched behind the Vickers, watching them.
They reached the bridge and both checked their own side for anything suspicious. Individually they raised an arm, thumbs up. Slowly the first car creeped forward towards the small road bridge, the turret swinging left and right, checking the ground ahead. All looked good, so he crossed, and then stopped about 50 yards on. Satisfied he flagged the other car forward, one trooper ran up to his car and climbed in, the other waiting at the bridge for the second car as it advanced.
The two Australians stood by the bridge, watching. The sergeant, looked at his Lieutenant, the officer looked back and said “Well done Joe, their getting it, let’s see how they get on turning around without help, and we’ll do it again with the other car first.”
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
So the Indian troops who not long ago were expert cavalry men, skilled in looking after their mounts and preforming their military tasks. Have after an all too short training course, been sent to Malaya, and are only now getting the training that they require. Luckily for them their new instructors, are skilled in driving and maintaining motor vehicles, plus having a very good idea on the military skills that they will need. It’s unfortunate that their new mounts are lacking in one vital component, a wireless/radio, both to communicate between vehicles, and pass information back to their commanders. Which is in many ways the most vital aspect of reconnaissance, the ability to communicate to higher levels the results of your reconnaissance. However hopefully by the time the proverbial balloon goes up they will have received wireless/radio sets and have received the training in how to use them. While the Mormon-Herrington wasn’t the best wheeled armoured reconnaissance vehicle in the British arsenal, that title goes to the Daimler Armoured Car, the M/H was in the right hands and in the Far East more than adequate. It might lack the punch of the Daimler, with its 2 pounder, which could take out any Japanese armoured vehicle available, the combination of the Vickers MMG and the Boys AT gun, mean that it should give a good account of itself against all the Japanese armour in theatre. Every day the chances of the Japanese conducting a successful invasion become less and less, as the various small improvements combine together.
RR.
RR.
I will look into it tonight, likely to be south Australian, a Hermitage(Shiraz) of some sort is likely as wine pairing was less sophisticated in those days. Likely to be a Barossa valley red, at least they will have a good meal as rationing hadn’t started, likely the meat would be mutton not lamb, as in those days the majority of the sheep flock would have been merinos.
Something red from Seppelts in the Barossa Valley of South Australia would be appropriate- old vines dating back to the 1860s and a fine selection of varieties. They could also have cracked some of their very good ’Great Western’ sparkling or some of their rather good Port after dinner.
Seppelts was my first thought - they are also famous for their fortified wine, ( thanks to the EU, we are not allowed to call it "port" any more. )I think Chateau Tanunda and Yalumba were going then. One thing is that as phylloxera never hit SA, we have vines going back to the 1840's.
The Barossa has the advantage of age. Another, lesser known region is the Coonawarra, which produces superb wines. The Southern Vales, just south of Adelaide, is another wine producing region that doesn't do a bad drop. Then you have the Hunter Valley in NSW, which doesn't produce a bad drop. However, movement of these wines was basically local, rather than Australia wide. So, you're basically stuck with something Victorian, in Victoria or something imported from overseas.
Ok Gents, I'm a bit behind the reading place here, but you may not be located south of the equator, especially Victoria, and Melbourne.
Even if St.Huberts wasn't growing vines in 1941, the Windsor Hotel, being the Windsor Hotel, could easily have had a stock of said drop in the cellar, especially if it was top class. I base that thought on having been in and out of the Windsor, over a number of years, answering Fire Alarms, you'd be surprised what they have in the basements of that place.
So as stated, if it was a good wine, there's no reason why it couldn't have been brought out for such an illustrious guest as Lord Gort, given that "Dougout Doug" also frequented the place a year or so later.
I'm not a wine drinker, but there were a lot of local Victorian wineries existing around that time, that faded due to economics, but have now come back, but this is a fiction story, so anything is possible, within reason.
We don't need to be absolutely pedantically accurate, as I read the post, and thought "Yep, that would be the Windsor in those days," and also the type place someone like Gort would stay when in town, so didn't get upset about the drinks on the table.
'Aussie
Residing in the Southern Antipodes
(Geelong, Victoria,)
Correct, however, IIRC Coonawarra in particular didn't get going till after 1945. Certainly, Langhorne Creek was from 19th C, but as you write, pretty much local only at that point.
The Southern Vales, Langhorne creek were primarily exporting to the UK, bulk wine juices. The Coonawarra was established as a vine producing region in 1890 but didn't really get going until after WWI.
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Aussie well pointed out.. P.S. you're/retired Firey? Retired U.S> Career Fire Officer here..Stay Safe Bro!
G'day Butch;
35 years MFB Melbourne.
If you're the same Butchpdf that was involved in the late Eric Flint's 1632 & Baens Bar, with debated tactics & equipment before.
Hope you are well.
Ian Munro
So I can't find a sample menu from the Hotel Windsor unless I go to the State Library, they haven't digitised them yet. I only mentioned the phyloxera because I was doing some work on a vineyard in the Yarra valley a month ago and the vineyard manager mentioned it as being present, when I was at school we learnt about the wine industry in Victoria in history and its decline was mentioned.
I suspect that the menu would have been published in French as was the practice at the time in the UK. Not sure when St Huberts converted to grazing in the 20's or 30's but it is certainly possible that the wine was still in the cellar. Otherwise I would go with a Barossa Shiraz and a shoulder of mutton, as being a good choice. I would not mind having that myself, sadly mutton being rather hard to come by these days.
Loving the story, anyway digressions into food are a feature not a bug on this forum.
I suspect that the menu would have been published in French as was the practice at the time in the UK. Not sure when St Huberts converted to grazing in the 20's or 30's but it is certainly possible that the wine was still in the cellar. Otherwise I would go with a Barossa Shiraz and a shoulder of mutton, as being a good choice. I would not mind having that myself, sadly mutton being rather hard to come by these days.
Loving the story, anyway digressions into food are a feature not a bug on this forum.