Malaya What If

[Amir]

For the US Army, the 15th Infantry was in Tientsin, China from 1912-1938, and the Philippine Division’s 31st Infantry was sent there in 1932 to reinforce the Shanghai Garrison. While the duties did not explicitly involve combat, they conducted the sort of patrols, guard, and escort missions that put young officers in positions of stress, acclimated soldiers to the field, and developed field grade officers to excel. Among the 15th’s distinguished China alumni were George Marshall, Joseph Stilwell, and Matthew Ridgway.

 

[Butchpfd]

Offen true but, many American soldiers served in the Philippines, Hawaii, Panama, Puerto Rico, China, and even up in Alaska. The same was true of the Navy. "Join the Navy and See the World"

Army unit's overseas, were in Puerto Rico. Panama, and the Philippines primarily Coast artillery or aviation , there were more I fantry in the Canal zone then the Philippines until 1940. Army units I the Far East, such as the 15th Infa try,were like the Asiatic Fleet and 4th Marines, long service units where many enlisted men and officers would spend the majority of their career in the same unit.

 

[jlckansas]

The Philippines had the 31st Infantry Regiment, the only regiment that was activated overseas for the US. Hawaii and the Canal Zone always infantry units like the Philippine Islands. You also had Guam with a small Navy contingent with it actually being governed on and off by a Naval Officer at times. During the interwar period enlisted men and officers for both service enjoyed service in the Philippines and Canal Zone for numerous reason but among the top ones were: The Dollar went further than at home, Beer and liquor were available, it was a more relaxed period for troop stationed over seas. Until the late 30's you worked with a more peace time mindset, things like inspections and making sure boxes were checked, were more important than actually being ready for war.

 

[Amir]

The Philippines had the 31st Infantry Regiment, the only regiment that was activated overseas for the US. Hawaii and the Canal Zone always infantry units like the Philippine Islands. You also had Guam with a small Navy contingent with it actually being governed on and off by a Naval Officer at times. During the interwar period enlisted men and officers for both service enjoyed service in the Philippines and Canal Zone for numerous reason but among the top ones were: The Dollar went further than at home, Beer and liquor were available, it was a more relaxed period for troop stationed over seas. Until the late 30's you worked with a more peace time mindset, things like inspections and making sure boxes were checked, were more important than actually being ready for war.

In addition to the 31st, the PI had slots for enlisted Coast Artillerymen and other specialties throughout its establishment. The bulk of the force was comprised of Philippine Scouts, but the officers, warrant officers, and some NCO billets in the Scout units were Regular Army forces.

The Hawaiian department had the largest concentration of regular Army forces, with the square Hawaiian Division (19th, 21st, 27th and 35th infantry regiments), coast artillery, and support units.

The Canal Zone hosted the Panama Division/Panama Mobile Force, with the 5th (from 1939), 14th, and 33rd infantry regiments plus supporting arms. The 65th infantry was stationed on Puerto Rico, and the 4th Infantry in Alaska. All these locations also hosted coast artillery and support units.

During WW2, use of this local knowledge was patchy. The Philippine Division fought its defense on home ground. The 24th and 25th, formed from the Hawaiian division, saw combat throughout the Pacific, although in harsher conditions than the relatively benign Hawaiian jungle. The Panama Mobile Force, less the 33rd, formed the nucleus of the of 71st Light Division, trained for combat in Pacific mountain and jungle terrain before being committed to Europe as a regular infantry division. The 33rd was disbanded, but its members constituted the bulk of the 2d Battalion of the 5307th Composite Unit (Provisional) (Merrill’s Marauders). The 4th fought on Attu and remained on defense of Alaska. Finally, the 65th ended up fighting in Europe by way of North Africa.

As an aside, some of the most colorful unit traditions in the US Army come from units that spent the interwar on overseas posting. This includes the China Gate from the 15th, the 21st’s “Gimlet Stick”, and the 31st’s Shanghai Bowl.

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

The major difference between the British Army and most others, was the fact that British forces served both at home and abroad. A French officer was ether a part of the Metropolitan Army or the Colonial Army. While given the comparatively small size of the American Army, the lack of overseas territories, and the preference for using the USMC, for expeditionary forces in Central and South America, the chance of an officer serving outside America were small. Were as virtually all British officers in the combat arms, infantry, cavalry, artillery and engineers had served at least one if not more deployments overseas. This was also true of the majority of officers in the RN and RAF, British officers were probably the most cosmopolitan in the world during the inter war period. And a majority of them had as a result of post WWI reductions dropped two or more ranks from their WWI hight, ie from Lt Colonel to captain, and thus had had experience of higher command under their belt. A young man who left Sandhurst at 18 in 1914, could have been a Lt Colonel in France 1918, in command of an infantry battalion, artillery regiment. Only to revert to a captain and not find himself a Lt Colonel again until he was in his forties with two or more overseas postings, and time in a staff appointment, plus minor combat duties. His American equivalent might have only served for a few months in France during WWI, then spent the inter war years without seeing anything more than some strike braking duties, up until the entry of America into WWII.

RR.

Agreed - my grandmother's uncle began the war as a major and by early 15 was an acting lieutenant colonel leading a battalion at 2nd Ypres (Hooge crater) by 1916 he was an acting Brigadier General commanding 62nd infantry brigade of 21st Division on the Somme and the 3rd Ypres where he was killed, ironically at the Hooge crater.

The speed of expansion of the British army in WW1 was phenomenal and given the timescales what it was achieving by 1918 was exceptional. Gary Sheffield's 'Forgotten Victory' is an excellent appraisal of the army's expansion

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Perhaps a relevant question is does Singapore have any Typex Machines?
If so how many and where.

(The wikipedia article states that they were in sufficient numbers for two to be sent to New Zealand in 1940)

Hi edgeworthy, I'm certain it did, but how many and where, is a bit more questionable. If I had to guess, I'd say Kranji, where the FECB (Far East Combined Bureau) had its radio interception station, but it might have been received there and then sent to the Singapore Naval Base for decoding. Building these machines was slow, I believe they started building them in 1938, but by April 1940, only 500 had been built. Given all the embassies, and senior military HQs needing them, and keeping one-two spare, as these weren't the most reliable machines, Singapore, and Hong Kong would have only had a few each.

The more I dig into all this, the deeper it gets for me, with regard to peripheral but relevant issues, like radio reception reliability, as well as the machines themselves. I will write more later, as I understand it better, and will also include all this in a new story about British Comms as well, at a later date. So I'm going to park this, while I research more, and move on with the story.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Good morning, from the Southern Antipodes. (i.e. Victoria, Australia.)

I've greatly enjoyed this thread, but my knowledge of the campaign is scant, other than the stories of Australian POW's in Changing, and on the Burma Railway, so have refrained from comment.

I'm sure if we dig a bit we can find plenty of evidence of Telephone Exchange Operators, holding on till the last.

Case in point, at the Adelaide River War Cemetery, in the Northern Territory, in a separate area, are a group of civilian graves. These are the staff, mostly women, of the Darwin Telephone Exchange, who operated through the bombing of Darwin, in 1942, until the building took a direct hit.

The point I'm alluding to is the dedication, and professionalism, of the manual exchange operators, in many places, both in war, and natural disaster.

Hi Aussie, thank you for your compliment, and you reinforce the point I was making about the manual exchange operators.

Please bear in mind this is an Alternative timeline, and already there have been numerous significant changes to the historical path of Australian involvement and my timeline. Major examples are Rowell replacing Bennett, the forming of the Australian Independent Companies (Commando's), and the Australian Medium Artillery Regt, the redeploying of the 23rd Brigade to Malaya, and expansion of RAAF squadrons in the theatre.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Mr. Coxy, I know ham radio operators who still use WW 2 and Korean war era radio teletype units for RTTY all the time. They have restored them and there is an active market on them for parts and to use them. Updated units are used also all the time now even having computer programs hooked to radios to do it.

Hi jlckansas, yes I found that while researching about RTTY.

I'm not offended by the salutation of Mr, but you can call me Coxy, Fatboy or even Steve, if you want, just don't call me late for my dinner, I've got to keep my fighting weight up!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

More than merely likely. Iwane Matsui was precisely such an individual.

Neither Lt Gen Yamashita, co of the Japanese 25th Army which invaded Malay, or any of his three divisional commanders had joined by 1904, and missed the big show. Given the losses among the officer corps, a good thing for them!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

The major difference between the British Army and most others, was the fact that British forces served both at home and abroad. A French officer was ether a part of the Metropolitan Army or the Colonial Army.
RR.

Hi Ramp-Rat, that's not dissimilar to an officer being in the British Army, or the British Indian Army, a very clear distinction between them.

Both the British military and the American military saw massive expansion, but quite possibly the US Army saw the greatest jump in promotions within the officer corps.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

It's hard to know everything about the technology of the past. I'm a luddite who doesn't know the technology of today. So, we do the best we can and wing it.

Hi Belisarius II, thank you for the kind words, but no more now, otherwise we'll all go mushy, and I need to be hard for when I start killing off favourite people or ships once the fighting starts!

PS, before anyone asks Big Mac is not having a single hair on his head touched anymore than he did historically, so don't ask!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Agreed - my grandmother's uncle began the war as a major and by early 15 was an acting lieutenant colonel leading a battalion at 2nd Ypres (Hooge crater) by 1916 he was an acting Brigadier General commanding 62nd infantry brigade of 21st Division on the Somme and the 3rd Ypres where he was killed, ironically at the Hooge crater.

The speed of expansion of the British army in WW1 was phenomenal and given the timescales what it was achieving by 1918 was exceptional. Gary Sheffield's 'Forgotten Victory' is an excellent appraisal of the army's expansion

Hi Admiral Jellicoe, I'll have a look at the book 'Forgotten Victory' I need to brush up on the western front, off visiting the trenches with a tour company in July!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

In addition to the 31st, the PI had slots for enlisted Coast Artillerymen and other specialties throughout its establishment. The bulk of the force was comprised of Philippine Scouts, but the officers, warrant officers, and some NCO billets in the Scout units were Regular Army forces.

The Hawaiian department had the largest concentration of regular Army forces, with the square Hawaiian Division (19th, 21st, 27th and 35th infantry regiments), coast artillery, and support units.

The Canal Zone hosted the Panama Division/Panama Mobile Force, with the 5th (from 1939), 14th, and 33rd infantry regiments plus supporting arms. The 65th infantry was stationed on Puerto Rico, and the 4th Infantry in Alaska. All these locations also hosted coast artillery and support units.

During WW2, use of this local knowledge was patchy. The Philippine Division fought its defense on home ground. The 24th and 25th, formed from the Hawaiian division, saw combat throughout the Pacific, although in harsher conditions than the relatively benign Hawaiian jungle. The Panama Mobile Force, less the 33rd, formed the nucleus of the of 71st Light Division, trained for combat in Pacific mountain and jungle terrain before being committed to Europe as a regular infantry division. The 33rd was disbanded, but its members constituted the bulk of the 2d Battalion of the 5307th Composite Unit (Provisional) (Merrill’s Marauders). The 4th fought on Attu and remained on defense of Alaska. Finally, the 65th ended up fighting in Europe by way of North Africa.

As an aside, some of the most colorful unit traditions in the US Army come from units that spent the interwar on overseas posting. This includes the China Gate from the 15th, the 21st’s “Gimlet Stick”, and the 31st’s Shanghai Bowl.

Very impressive Amir

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

1941, Saturday 27 September;

“Open Fire, barrage, commence, commence, commence”, the eight barrelled pom-pom mounting began spitting out shells at a rate of sixteen 2lb shells a second, with a deafening effect, the gun crew, their ears plugged, working by visual signals, as a well-orchestrated team. A lone aircraft had entered their fire zone, and the gunnery officer, keyed up with the expectant air attack, had given the order. The pilot, Lieutenant Malcolm Watson, FAA, his Fulmar damaged from an attack by a Fiat CR.42, was desperately trying to get his aircraft back to the carrier, HMS Ark Royal. The aircraft, hit multiple times, plunged into the sea, killing both Watson and his observer, Sub Lieutenant Paul Couch. There was a brief moment of horror on the bridge, and congratulations among the gun crew, before their attention was refocused on the current air attack.

Five minutes earlier, picked up on radar at 12.55 were two formations 30 miles out and closing, one from the east and the second from the north. Eight Fulmer’s were vectored on the northern, larger one, seven Regia Aeronautica SM.84 torpedo planes, escorted by a top cover of five CR.42 fighters Falco’s, shooting down one torpedo plane. But once past the Fulmars, the speed of the torpedo bombers meant another pass wasn’t possible until their slowed for their torpedo attacks. And so, the dance around the convoy began, the Fulmar’s and CR.42’s of comparable speeds, sparing.

A trio of bombers came in low, port side of the convoy, targeting the battleship ahead, HMS Rodney. “Open fire, barrage, commence, commence, commence”, again the pom-pom mounting on top of the super imposed twin 14-inch turret responded. The aircraft’s line of approach presented an ideal opportunity for the guns of HMS Prince of Wales to lay a barrage through which they flew. The lead aircraft, bravely flown by Capitano Rotolo was hit hard, staggered, lurched sideways, colliding with his right wingman, Tenente Barro, both crashing into the sea, the third aircraft peeling away. A second attack, a pair of bombers, again Rodney the target, dropped the torpedoes in the water early, allowing Rodney time to make an emergency turn of 60 degrees to port, to safely comb them.

Thirty minutes later, radar picks up another attack, five SM.84’s, the raid played out the same, and once past the Fulmars, they targeted HMS Nelson, on the starboard side. Two came in low, flown by Colonnello Seidl and Tenente Tomasino, they launched late, and one type W 45cm torpedo, with a 200 kg warhead, hit Nelson just forward of A turret, puncturing a 40 ft by 20 ft hole in her hull, causing her to immediately reduce speed to 18 knots. Both aircraft flew on, over the convoy, and into the AA guns of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Sheffield, which shot them both down. A chasing Fulmar, piloted by Sub-Lieutenant Percy Guy, was damaged by Rodney, but he was able to ditch and both he and his observer, LA Jones were rescued by the destroyer HMS Duncan.

Again, just fifteen minutes later, another attack, the Regia Aeronautica, giving it their best, with twelve slower SM.79 torpedo bombers, with a heavier escort of twelve Fiat CR.42 fighter, but this time the Fulmars and the convoys AA barrage kept them at arm’s length, the bombers displaying less confident in being able to penetrate the screen. In an effort to distract the defence, Sergente Maggiore Valiotti began to perform aerobatic manoeuvres in his Falco, high above the convoy, and for six minutes he defied the guns, until the inevitable happened, and he was shot down, crashing to his death in the sea. The rest, after a few more half-hearted attempts to penetrate the barrage, returned to base.

As the air threat abated, so a closing Italian force of two battleships, Vittorio Veneto and Litttorio, 74 miles away to the North East became the focus, having been spotted by an RAF Maryland out of Malta. The three battleships, Prince of Wales, Rodney and Nelson, with cruiser and destroyer escort, formed up in front of the convoy to intercept the Italians, but having now taken on 3,700 tons of water, Nelson was forced to reduce speed to 15 knots, and took station at the rear of the convoy, with a destroyer escort. The rest, with HMS Prince of Wales as flagship pushed on, hoping to engage the Italian force.

Admiral Iachino, commander of the Italian forces, had become increasingly concerned about his situation, being shadowed by a British reconnaissance plane, and a lack of a promised CAP from the Regia Aeronautica. When it became aware to him that he might be facing two British battleships and an aircraft carrier, and not the one battleship as previously reported, with the commander of his screening heavy cruiser force south of him, informing him he was nicely silhouetted against the northern sky, Iachino ordered a return back to base.

Operation Halberd, sending another resupply convoy to Malta was a success, 85,000 tons being delivered, while losses were light. Undoubtedly the Italians fought at a disadvantage, brought about by their ignorance of the British reading of their codes, and the advanced British naval technology. An example of that was the Type 273 radar, fitted to HMS Prince Of Wales in July, a larger, improved version of the type 271, which, in the early morning of the 29th, picked up a radar contact seven miles ahead, allowing the force to make an emergency turn, and avoid launched torpedoes. Indeed, the performance of the new, state of the art, British battleship, was very pleasing, only the friendly fire incidents, and excessive heat in many of the ship’s compartments being a negative. For the commander of the British Naval forces used in the operation, Admiral Sir James Somerville, he was made a knight (Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire). He’d already been knighted, (Knight Commander of the Order of Bath), and Admiral Cunningham, commander of the Mediterranean Fleet sent him the congratulatory message “Fancy, twice a knight at your age”

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hopefully I've got this right, should all be as was historically, purpose of the story is to highlight some of HMS Prince of Wales capabilities a bit. If its wrong, blame my interpretation of the text found mostly from here. https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-01BB-HMS_Prince_of_Wales.htm

 

[Sekhmet_D]

Neither Lt Gen Yamashita, co of the Japanese 25th Army which invaded Malay, or any of his three divisional commanders had joined by 1904, and missed the big show. Given the losses among the officer corps, a good thing for them!

He, Mutaguchi and Takuro Matsui did subsequently obtain combat experience in China, but yes, that was an affair significantly more in favour of the Japanese with much less risk of dying for the Emperor. Nishimura on the other hand was largely a 'paper officer' who spent most of his time in staff and admin billets.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

He, Mutaguchi and Takuro Matsui did subsequently obtain combat experience in China, but yes, that was an affair significantly more in favour of the Japanese with much less risk of dying for the Emperor. Nishimura on the other hand was largely a 'paper officer' who spent most of his time in staff and admin billets.

Hi Sekhmet_D, am I right in thinking Nishimura was more of a political appointment, with friends in high places? Can the poor performance of the Imperial Guards in Malaya be put down to him, or more to the fact that they had little combat experience?

 

[Sekhmet_D]

Hi Sekhmet_D, am I right in thinking Nishimura was more of a political appointment, with friends in high places? Can the poor performance of the Imperial Guards in Malaya be put down to him, or more to the fact that they had little combat experience?

You are right, Coxy, about Nishimura getting to command the Guards by way of politics. He was instrumental in getting a group of militant plotters lenient sentences during their trial for staging a coup, and received the post as a reward.

He lobbied hard to get his division included with the Malaya invasion force (thirsty to finally get both himself and them near a battlefield, no doubt); Yamashita was not keen on their inclusion on accout of personal enmity betweem him and Nishimura, plus his knowledge that the Guards were a largely ceremonial unit with no real combat chops. They were finally thrown in only as a reluctant afterthought, and their spotty performance along with Nishimura's frequent insubordination and indecision actually resulted in them being denied the battle honours for the campaign.

So to answer your question, a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B.

 

[edgeworthy]

Slim went from junior NCO to Field Marshal in approximately 30 years.

Yes, but you only get one or two like him in a generation. But the Pom's seemed to have a larger number of them. Perhaps the NorthWest Frontier of the Empire was a good training ground, but that doesn't explain Dowding, Park, or Admirals Cunningham, & Somerville.

Strictly speaking the only man to go from Private to Field Marshal was William Robertson. Who joined in 1877, technically underage, and was not Commissioned until 1888,
The leap from the Ranks to the Officers mess was not impossible, 100+ could every year, another NCO was Commissioned on the same day. And it was not unheard of for these men to make General. Hector MacDonald being the most famous example.

Bill Slim did not rise from the ranks, its something of a myth. He was more of a back door Commission via his brother's attendance of the University of Birmingham.

Despite having no other connection to the university, in 1912 Slim joined the Birmingham University Officers' Training Corps, and he was thus able to be commissioned as a temporary second lieutenant into the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 22 August 1914, on the outbreak of the First World War; in later life, as a result of his modest social origins and his unpretentious manner, he was sometimes wrongly supposed to have risen from the ranks. He was badly wounded at Gallipoli. On return to England, he was granted a regular commission as a second lieutenant in the West India Regiment.

In a similar fashion Henry Wilson and John French first joined the Militia, then moved sideways into a Regular Commission. Later both making Field Marshal themselves.
(French actually started his Military Career in the Royal Navy. He served as a Midshipman aboard HMS Warrior.)

 

[CB13]

Very stealthy butterfly FC.

Very nice..... 🍻