Leonid Brezhnev dies earlier in 1975/1977, how does this change the USSR and the world?

So suppose Leonid Brezhnev dies in 1975 or in 1977 of a heart attack
Now I wish to know how the world or the USSR would change with these possible successors?

1)First of all who do you think would be the most likely successor in 1975 and 1977?

2)How would the world and USSR change if Mikhail Suslov succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977?

3)How would the world and USSR change if Yuri Andropov succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?

4)How would the world and USSR change if Konstantin Chernenko succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?

5)Which of these leaders have the potential of stopping or atleast lessening the USSR's economic stagnation.

Why I am asking this question: I wish to just improve the USSR earlier in the 1970s lmao. So that it will have a decent chance of survival if not victory. For the purpose of a historical rp.
 
why can't Andropov, Chernenko or Mikhail Suslov succeed Brezhnev?
Andropov is not a secretary of the Central Committee.
Chernenko is weak.
Suslov can, but does not want.
What would Andrei Kirilenko's USSR look like and what would his domestic, economic and foreign policies be like?
Very much like Brezhnev's. Even more money for the military-industrial complex. But in 1980 he had a stroke and fell into dementia.
 
What would Andrei Kirilenko's USSR look like
Very much like Brezhnev's. Even more money for the military-industrial complex.

Probably a lot like what President Reagan did in the early 1980s. At the beginning, you want to show strength and resolve. And you want to start or continue a military build-up.

And later on from this position of greater strength, you can then negotiate.

* part of President Reagan showing resolve was him firing the PATCO air traffic controllers who went out on strike the Summer of 1981.
 
Not possible jurisdictionally.

Unlikely. He was not considred a strong enough leader.
In 1975-1977 it's a choice between Kirilenko and Kulakov.
What would Andrei Kirilenko's USSR look like and what would his domestic, economic and foreign policies be like?
Very much like Brezhnev's. Even more money for the military-industrial complex. But in 1980 he had a stroke and fell into dementia.
What would Kulakov's USSR look like?
 
[ how the hell did a farm kid with literal surname Kulakov not only avoid liquidation under Stalin, but work his way up a senior Politburo member? ]
 
Probably the same way Grigori Romanov did.
Romanov is a fairly common surname, so that wasn't as much of a red flag. A chess grandmaster named Bronstein, on the other hand, endured government harassment.

3)How would the world and USSR change if Yuri Andropov succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?

4)How would the world and USSR change if Konstantin Chernenko succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?

Andropov and Chernenko were cut from the same cloth as Brezhnev, so their policies would likely have been similar to OTL even with the earlier date.
 
The economic reforms that were badly needed in the 1960s are implemented. Combined with the potential to avoid the massive corruption of the later Brezhnev years and the Soviet collapse might be avoided.
 
The economic reforms that were badly needed in the 1960s are implemented. Combined with the potential to avoid the massive corruption of the later Brezhnev years and the Soviet collapse might be avoided.
With what standards of labour unrest and indiscipline? Italian? French? English? German? Swedish? Japanese? Any increase in labour productivity, combined with more collective labour unrest might save the Soviet Union from its own ruling class.
 
1)First of all who do you think would be the most likely successor in 1975 and 1977?

It'd be a bit of a mess at first and depends on the year he goes. Grishin would have had some people behind him. Kirilenko would have a say. And Podgarny may have not yet flamed out completely. But my money is on Romanov. Brezhnev liked him. He was a noted hardliner, he "cleaned up" Leningrad, and he was young. The fact he was a shit and an anti-Semite did not count against him. He was "young" by the standards, and he only joined the Presidium in '76, but a lot of people saw him as the rising star.

2)How would the world and USSR change if Mikhail Suslov succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977?
Suslov is not the guy. Suslov is the man consulted on whether the guy is politically pure enough, and he gets a say. People say nice things about how dedicated he is, and how he takes the bus to work, and lives like a pauper, and is not at all corrupt, but nobody wants a true believer in the big chair. In 1970s Soviet Union, no one wants to make a mad monk into the pope.

3)How would the world and USSR change if Yuri Andropov succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?
Andropov is not yet powerful enough to take the throne. He is playing the long game, but he's not there yet. Andropov would have been an interesting choice, because he is a thug, but he is also a realist. Unlike Suslov, he has no illusions about what is happening and is ruthless. Life would get worse for a lot of people if he takes power while not yet completely decrepit.

4)How would the world and USSR change if Konstantin Chernenko succeeded Brezhnev in 1975 or 1977 instead of 1982?
Chernenko was a Brezhnev crony, but he is not yet big enough to sideline some of the bigger lads. His reign would have been Brezhnev 2.0

5)Which of these leaders have the potential of stopping or atleast lessening the USSR's economic stagnation.
None. Andropov had the most realistic understanding of the Soviet economy. Grishin and Podgarny probably the silliest. Chernenko would have not made any difference. Suslov would have been a living nightmare, as he actually believed all the Soviet claptrap and would have tried to make the Soviet Union into a true Marxist-Leninist state. Kirilenko would have been curious, but his health was already trending towards bad, so not sure how much could have changed. Romanov would have been more of the same, but with more superficial changes to clean up the image.

Romanov was a shrewd shit. IIRC, he hated rock bands, but during Christian holidays he would try to put rock acts on local TV to prevent people from going to Church, as he saw Christianity a bigger menace to the Soviet way of life than rock music. He was also incredibly petty, picking fights and feuds with random powerless musicians, actors and comedians over perceived slights or just for no reason at all. He banned one Soviet actor from living in Leningrad and prevented him from being able to get an apartment anywhere near the town, for no discernable reason.
 
It'd be a bit of a mess at first and depends on the year he goes. Grishin would have had some people behind him. Kirilenko would have a say. And Podgarny may have not yet flamed out completely. But my money is on Romanov. Brezhnev liked him. He was a noted hardliner, he "cleaned up" Leningrad, and he was young. The fact he was a shit and an anti-Semite did not count against him. He was "young" by the standards, and he only joined the Presidium in '76, but a lot of people saw him as the rising star.


Suslov is not the guy. Suslov is the man consulted on whether the guy is politically pure enough, and he gets a say. People say nice things about how dedicated he is, and how he takes the bus to work, and lives like a pauper, and is not at all corrupt, but nobody wants a true believer in the big chair. In 1970s Soviet Union, no one wants to make a mad monk into the pope.


Andropov is not yet powerful enough to take the throne. He is playing the long game, but he's not there yet. Andropov would have been an interesting choice, because he is a thug, but he is also a realist. Unlike Suslov, he has no illusions about what is happening and is ruthless. Life would get worse for a lot of people if he takes power while not yet completely decrepit.


Chernenko was a Brezhnev crony, but he is not yet big enough to sideline some of the bigger lads. His reign would have been Brezhnev 2.0


None. Andropov had the most realistic understanding of the Soviet economy. Grishin and Podgarny probably the silliest. Chernenko would have not made any difference. Suslov would have been a living nightmare, as he actually believed all the Soviet claptrap and would have tried to make the Soviet Union into a true Marxist-Leninist state. Kirilenko would have been curious, but his health was already trending towards bad, so not sure how much could have changed. Romanov would have been more of the same, but with more superficial changes to clean up the image.

Romanov was a shrewd shit. IIRC, he hated rock bands, but during Christian holidays he would try to put rock acts on local TV to prevent people from going to Church, as he saw Christianity a bigger menace to the Soviet way of life than rock music. He was also incredibly petty, picking fights and feuds with random powerless musicians, actors and comedians over perceived slights or just for no reason at all. He banned one Soviet actor from living in Leningrad and prevented him from being able to get an apartment anywhere near the town, for no discernable reason.
Kirilenko as successor?
How would he be?
 
Kirilenko as successor?
How would he be?
Kirilenko declined pretty badly in terms of mental faculties, so he would not have lasted long. He was high-handed, had a tendency to be tongue-tied even in his prime, and had a hard time communicating his ideas when the spotlight was on him. He would have retreated behind a desk and try to put together a team of his people to run things for him. But per the memoirs of his peers, Kirilenko had the hardest time putting a crew together. Now, Kirilenko was himself part of Brezhnev's crew for Brezhnev loved to form factions of various people he'd discovered in the '40s, '50s, and '60s as he was moving up the ranks, and Brezhnev would take them with him each time he'd get promoted. Kirilenko moved with the flow and rose with Brezhnev, but unlike some of Brezhnev's crew who then formed their own crews, Kirilenko had a hard time finding people. This is pretty remarkable given the high-positions Kirilenko held. He was for a while pretty much the head man of the Soviet military-industrial complex, running everything from factories, to construction, to even space camps (for a bit).

Kirilenko should have a good-sized faction all about him by the early '70s. Instead, he had to rely on Brezhnev's people. And this caused problems, because him and Brezhnev began to disagree on Soviet economy in the mid '70s. Kirilenko wanted "reforms," but was rather confused on what those reforms would constitute. Brezhnev just wanted to wave a magic wand and for things to "improve." Should Brezhnev have died in 1975, Kirilenko would need to use Brezhnev's crew to keep himself afloat. But this would have invariably limited him and he would be seen as Brezhnev 1.5

It was said Kirilenko was opposed to the War in Afghanistan. This is mostly extracted from Kirilenko's harsh words regarding the leadership of the Afghanistan Communist regime. Kirilenko thought them idiots who mishandled a sensitive situation and caused their own problems, which the Soviet Union was now having to resolve. This view was shared by others. But this could have just been Kirilenko venting about the money spent on Afghanistan, as every ruble sent there meant less money for his ministries. I am not sure how much Kirilenko would have done to avoid the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan, but there were more than a few Soviet politicos who balked at the money their puppet regime in Afghanistan was asking. Before the Soviet Union became truly and fully military involved, it was asked to forgive loans, extend more loans, and pay off other loans of the Afghani regime. Would Kirilenko have put his foot down on purely economic reasons? Hard to say.

Kirilenko was a reactionary Brezhnevite through and through, with occasional moments of maudlin romanticism towards Cossacks (he spent considerable energy and political capital to get a holiday going to recognize some Cossack tribes for their contribution to the Soviet regime and WW2), and would randomly favor this author or that, including those he felt were overlooked. The latter would sometimes be embarrassing as he had crabbed tastes, and would champion authors he was told were good without actually reading their works. Some say he partly did this to needle the Ministry of Culture and to show he could push them about.

Kirilenko did not say one word about environmental damage of a major polluting factory, because he felt the project was sanctioned from on high by Brezhnev himself and he dared not move against it. And he regarded environmentalists as problematic rebels. But then, on a whim, he saw a documentary about how the small government fisheries in Lake Baikal have caused some environmental damage to the area and the fishing villages in the area, and he personally intervened to stop the dumping of pollution. So Kirilenko could have been capable of lessening the damage done to the Soviet environment, but only if the pollutant was not a major electrical station, or a nuclear reactor.

Kirilenko had under his competency "closed cities" - towns where secret military research was done, which did not appear on maps and had no names, merely codenames with a numeric designation. At no time did he seem to show any inclination of learning what was happening there, for good or ill, and how things were run. People who worked with him thought him to be rather ignorant about nuclear science. Not saying he starts WW3, but he thought of nuclear weapons as just another weapon. He was pretty limited in terms of his intellectual capacity.

Kirilenko once spent an entire weekend reading secret reports about UFO sightings which he asked about from the KGB, and at the conclusion of it allowed a newspaper to publish a story about a UFO sighting in West Germany, as well as a UFO sighting in the Soviet Union. Many a tea leaves reading of this incident was had, including by the KGB themselves. Some thought the old boy was losing his marbles. Others thought it meant he was pro-press freedom (he showed no wish to return to the Thaw at all, and was reactionary). And some simply chalked it up to a weird bug bear. Take it as you will.

The most defining characteristic of Kirilenko's spells as chairman of the major committees was his belief that within the walls of the Kremlin, among Politburo members, total truth should be had regarding the state of the country. But none of it should be shared beyond the walls. Thus, he had no problem taking a brutally honest report on bad harvests, and stagnating economy, but was most concerned about it being leaked. His peers thought the former highly suspect. The feeling was that even within the Politburo, one must bullshit and put a happy veneer on the bad news. Kirilenko's approach ruffled feathers. And some say that was the whole point. He wanted to make other ministers uncomfortable, to show he could put the boots to their ministries . It made him few friends. And contributed to his inability to form a faction.

Kirilenko would not have lasted long. His mental health was already showing signs of being troubled toward the end of the '70s. He would have been a winter king. But he could have changed things. I doubt he would have resolved the economy. But I do think he may have not gotten the Soviet Union involved in Afghanistan, because he regarded himself as his own foreign minister, and was not above second guessing foreign ministry work during his frequent foreign trips. That alone would have changed a great deal.
 
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Kirilenko declined pretty badly in terms of mental faculties, so he would not have lasted long. He was high-handed, had a tendency to be tongue-tied even in his prime, and had a hard time communicating his ideas when the spotlight was on him. He would have retreated behind a desk and try to put together a team of his people to run things for him. But per the memoirs of his peers, Kirilenko had the hardest time putting a crew together. Now, Kirilenko was himself part of Brezhnev's crew for Brezhnev loved to form factions of various people he'd discovered in the '40s, '50s, and '60s as he was moving up the ranks, and Brezhnev would take them with him each time he'd get promoted. Kirilenko moved with the flow and rose with Brezhnev, but unlike some of Brezhnev's crew who then formed their own crews, Kirilenko had a hard time finding people. This is pretty remarkable given the high-positions Kirilenko held. He was for a while pretty much the head man of the Soviet military-industrial complex, running everything from factories, to construction, to even space camps (for a bit).

Kirilenko should have a good-sized faction all about him by the early '70s. Instead, he had to rely on Brezhnev's people. And this caused problems, because him and Brezhnev began to disagree on Soviet economy in the mid '70s. Kirilenko wanted "reforms," but was rather confused on what those reforms would constitute. Brezhnev just wanted to wave a magic wand and for things to "improve." Should Brezhnev have died in 1975, Kirilenko would need to use Brezhnev's crew to keep himself afloat. But this would have invariably limited him and he would be seen as Brezhnev 1.5

It was said Kirilenko was opposed to the War in Afghanistan. This is mostly extracted from Kirilenko's harsh words regarding the leadership of the Afghanistan Communist regime. Kirilenko thought them idiots who mishandled a sensitive situation and caused their own problems, which the Soviet Union was now having to resolve. This view was shared by others. But this could have just been Kirilenko venting about the money spent on Afghanistan, as every ruble sent there meant less money for his ministries. I am not sure how much Kirilenko would have done to avoid the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan, but there were more than a few Soviet politicos who balked at the money their puppet regime in Afghanistan was asking. Before the Soviet Union became truly and fully military involved, it was asked to forgive loans, extend more loans, and pay off other loans of the Afghani regime. Would Kirilenko have put his foot down on purely economic reasons? Hard to say.

Kirilenko was a reactionary Brezhnevite through and through, with occasional moments of maudlin romanticism towards Cossacks (he spent considerable energy and political capital to get a holiday going to recognize some Cossack tribes for their contribution to the Soviet regime and WW2), and would randomly favor this author or that, including those he felt were overlooked. The latter would sometimes be embarrassing as he had crabbed tastes, and would champion authors he was told were good without actually reading their works. Some say he partly did this to needle the Ministry of Culture and to show he could push them about.

Kirilenko did not say one word about environmental damage of a major polluting factory, because he felt the project was sanctioned from on high by Brezhnev himself and he dared not move against it. And he regarded environmentalists as problematic rebels. But then, on a whim, he saw a documentary about how the small government fisheries in Lake Baikal have caused some environmental damage to the area and the fishing villages in the area, and he personally intervened to stop the dumping of pollution. So Kirilenko could have been capable of lessening the damage done to the Soviet environment, but only if the pollutant was not a major electrical station, or a nuclear reactor.

Kirilenko had under his competency "closed cities" - towns where secret military research was done, which did not appear on maps and had no names, merely codenames with a numeric designation. At no time did he seem to show any inclination of learning what was happening there, for good or ill, and how things were run. People who worked with him thought him to be rather ignorant about nuclear science. Not saying he starts WW3, but he thought of nuclear weapons as just another weapon. He was pretty limited in terms of his intellectual capacity.

Kirilenko once spent an entire weekend reading secret reports about UFO sightings which he asked about from the KGB, and at the conclusion of it allowed a newspaper to publish a story about a UFO sighting in West Germany, as well as a UFO sighting in the Soviet Union. Many a tea leaves reading of this incident was had, including by the KGB themselves. Some thought the old boy was losing his marbles. Others thought it meant he was pro-press freedom (he showed no wish to return to the Thaw at all, and was reactionary). And some simply chalked it up to a weird bug bear. Take it as you will.

The most defining characteristic of Kirilenko's spells as chairman of the major committees was his belief that within the walls of the Kremlin, among Politburo members, total truth should be had regarding the state of the country. But none of it should be shared beyond the walls. Thus, he had no problem taking a brutally honest report on bad harvests, and stagnating economy, but was most concerned about it being leaked. His peers thought the former highly suspect. The feeling was that even within the Politburo, one must bullshit and put a happy veneer on the bad news. Kirilenko's approach ruffled feathers. And some say that was the whole point. He wanted to make other ministers uncomfortable, to show he could put the boots to their ministries . It made him few friends. And contributed to his inability to form a faction.

Kirilenko would not have lasted long. His mental health was already showing signs of being troubled toward the end of the '70s. He would have been a winter king. But he could have changed things. I doubt he would have resolved the economy. But I do think he may have not gotten the Soviet Union involved in Afghanistan, because he regarded himself as his own foreign minister, and was not above second guessing foreign ministry work during his frequent foreign trips. That alone would have changed a great deal.
So if Kosygin-Liberamn group manages to influence him thoroughly in the early 70s then they can make him do their dream reforms after Brezhnev dies?
Because Kirilenko seems to be a person easily swayed

Good job Agent 47. Reform done
 
So if Kosygin-Liberamn group manages to influence him thoroughly in the early 70s then they can make him do their dream reforms after Brezhnev dies?
Because Kirilenko seems to be a person easily swayed

Good job Agent 47. Reform done
Correct. Conversely, Grishin may get into his ear, though Kirilenko would be wary of him. And any liberal reforms would have to work around Suslov.
 
Correct. Conversely, Grishin may get into his ear, though Kirilenko would be wary of him. And any liberal reforms would have to work around Suslov.
For the purpose of correcting history, I can have Suslov killed by Agent 47 (Agent 47 is my alternate history writer brain)
 
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