How do you guys believe European history would shift and change if the Indo-Europeans never existed?

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https://preview.redd.it/how-do-you-guys-believe-european-history-would-shift-and-v0-bfhrwkhn3poa1.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=bfdf804929d922e5d6bac55a71a1a5bf6a08ab1c
I stole this idea from r/AlternateHistory
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So here are my thoughts;
A Monotheistic Turkic religion might have taken over this ''europe'' instead and maybe most of the world in the future via possible colonization by Turkic peoples and other Non-indo-european countries of this alternate europe like Uralic-speaking nations, (maybe the Pre-Finno-Ugric substrate speakers too if they survive long enough to form a country), Pre-indo-europeans like the Etruscans/Vascones/Minoans/Tartessians of Tartessos/Pelasgians, Afroasiatic-speaking countries (like a potential berber or Amazigh country in the Iberian Peninsula), etc. Plus Tamga and the Old Turkic Script would likely be used to make writing systems for the countries of this alternate Europe especially the Turkic ones and Uralic countries maybe. I think Heraldry would still exist too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_script / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamga
(Also, I can see an Austroasiatic Bengal forming as a distinct civilization with complex farming societies/early states in the Bronze Age to Iron Age.)
Tamgha would likely form the basis for Heraldry in this alternate timeline and this ATL (Alternate timeline)'s version of Russia would be flooded with many Uralic Languages and it's even doubtful if Islam still exists in this alternate world. I also doubt the Inuits would settle in Ireland but if they did it would be very interesting an Inuit farming society/civilization exist tbh. This alternate Europe could alternatively be called something like ''Turania''??? maybe.... I also think the Tatar Federation's predecessor - likely an Empire would have administrative divisions called something like Khanates so we could see a Yeniseian Khanate or a Volga Tatar Khanate and autonomous administrative divisions like an autonomous* Evenki Khanate.
There would be a greater Minoan cultural influence in the Balkans and Anatolia imo, for example, the (probably) pre-Greek substrate-speaking ''Pelasgians'' would be assimilated into the Minoans and Minoan language and Minoan religion would likely spread throughout the Aegean with Minoan settlements all over Thrace and Western Anatolia.
The Iberian Peninsula would probably called the ''Andalusian Peninsula'' in this timeline and I think the Hattians, Minoans (or Minoan descendants) and Kaskians (Kaska people) might still exist in Turkey by this timeline's Year 2023. The Lemnians would likely just be assimilated into the Minoans too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language . The Rhaetians (a confederation of pre-indo-european Alpine tribes) if they survived into the 2020s or the 21st Century would probably have a Sovereign state of their own, let's call it the ''Republic of Raetia'' becoming this timeline's Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetian_people / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians.
(If Islam didn't exist) then Europe in this timeline would likely follow a combination of Uralic ethnic religions, Minoan religion and Tengrism in terms of religious affiliation imo. Anatolia might be called the ''Hattian Peninsula'' or 'Hattic Peninsula' in this alternate timeline since the ''Land of Hatti'' is the oldest name known (afaik) for Anatolia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengrism / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_religion / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language.
When it comes to Writing Systems; I think the Balkans would use the Minoan Linear A writing system creating Linear B-like syllabic scripts, while the Old Turkic Script might or would be modified for most Turkic countries with the Caucasus countries perhaps using it and Linear Elamite/Elamite Cuneiform. I think modern-day Hungary for example in this alternate timeline would use both a newer version of the Old Hungarian script and (probably) a modified Linear A writing system. Generally, I can see Cretan Hieroglyphs being used to decorate buildings and monuments as a result of Minoan cultural influence and artistic influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamite_cuneiform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_hieroglyphs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_script. A Udi-Speaking Caucasian Albania or ''Aghvan'' would likely exist in this timeline maybe as a microstate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people.
Also, North Italy would likely be dominated by an Etruscan Republic or Monarchical Etruscan state (like a ''Emirate of Rasenna'' imo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization. Based on the map, an Alternate Boxer rebellion in this timeline might involve the Khaganate of Leijona, the Tatar Federation's predecessor let's call it the 'Tatarian Empire' or Great Tatar Empire, Japan, the Baxuan Confederation, the Islamic Caliphate of Cordoba, the Basque Kingdom of Medikolurra (OR the Etruscan Emirate of Rasenna) in Northern Italy, Union of Greater Ashkenazia, the Kingdom of Hungary (replacing our timeline's Austria-Hungary) and the 'United Emirates of Al-Jadida' (a sovereign country in current-day OTL brazil) formed by Cordobans and the indigenous Peoples there) replacing the USA.
I think a Kingdom of EEF Newgrange Builders would exist in Ireland before being absorbed by a Uralic People later on,


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange.
While in Britain, the Stonehenge Builders, Avebury Henge Builders, and other ''Henge Builders'' Early European Farmers plus remaining Hunter-Gatherers would be absorbed/partially assimilated (at least) into the society or societies of incoming Uralic Peoples imo.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury.
Current-day OTL Germany/Belgium/the Netherlands might be dominated by a Meryan Empire (like the HRE) containing Meschera people and Uralicized Linear Pottery Culture/Funnelbeaker culture people(s).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Finns#Meshchera.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

The possibly non-indo-European Sicani people would probably still exist today and I believe the Nuragic Sardinians would have become a Phoenician/Carthage-like naval powerhouse in the Mediterranean with multiple Nuragic colonies. Oh Man, I would love to see an alternate-history Wikipedia-like Encyclopedia for this map/timeline. If or when Colonization happens, I think the Khaganate of Leijona for example may encounter a Tibeto-Burman ''Bengal'' inhabited by a Tibeto-Burman speaking people in this timeline's ''Indian Subcontinent'' or ''Dravidian Subcontinent''.
I wonder what a fleshed out Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau (or ''Elamite Plateau'') in this timeline might look like. Anyway, Buddhism probably doesn't exist in this timeline because the Buddha was born and raised into the society of the ethnoculturally Indo-Aryan Shakya people, so they would not exist. What I am guessing would happen is that the Nepal of this timeline would be inhabited by a Tibetic-speaking people in the place of the Indo-Aryan Nepalis . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetic_languages So I think the indigenous Tibetan Religion of Bon* would likely fill the void so to speak in northern South Asia in this alternate timeline and followers of the religion called Bonpos would influence the religious makeup of this timeline's alternate Indian Subcontinent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon and instead of the Buddha, we would be talking about Tonpa Shenrab, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonpa_Shenrab_Miwoche.

So as for Hinduism, it most likely wouldn't exist but I think a similar religion to it might emerge as a mixture of Indus Valley Civilization (Harappan civilization) Beliefs and Dravidian Folk Religions, so we could see a ''pseudo-Hinduism'' with more Dravidian influences exist. Polygamy may be more widespread in this timeline, especially Polygyny.
The Vedda People would likely dominate OTL Sri Lanka in this timeline with probably multiple Vedda farming societies and states for example being formed with likely heavy influence from Mainland Indian Subcontinent Dravidians* too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedda

In Central Asia, the religious landscape would likely be shaped by Islam (if it still exists), the Tibetan Bön religion and Chinese Religions/Philosophies. Or if Islam didn't exist, then Central Asia would be influenced by the Bön religion, Chinese Religions/Philosophies and Elamite Religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam#Religion also maybe in the future, the polytheistic religion of Elam might involve into a Henotheistic religion worshipping Inshushinak -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshushinak with Temple-Ziggurats and Shrines dedicated to him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language#Origins_of_modern_Sardinian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture.
The PIE (Pre-indo-european or in this case, PU - Pre-Uralic) Danube's ''Danubians'' related to or from the Cucuteni-Tyrpillia Culture (or including the people of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture and others*) would have advanced further into possibly state societies or polities like the Sumerian City-States or the Akkadian Empire/Ancient Egypt/Third Dynasty of Ur with its own independent writing system (or their own unique independent scripts).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni–Trypillia_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_symbols

The ''Cucuteni-Trypillians'' and other Danubians would be very important for the history of the Balkans I think especially when the Uralic peoples come into that part of Europe. Also, a Danubian language family would most likely exist alongside the Tyrsenian languages like Etruscan, Rhaetic plus maybe Minoan as well, ''Vasconic languages'' including the Basque language and Aquitanian language, the languages of the Pre-Finno-Ugric substrate speakers (which could ironically be like the Sami of our timeline i.e. downtrodden hunter-gatherers and herders see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegianization_of_the_Sámi /https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedification#Swedification_of_Sámi_and_Finns if they survived till today. let's say the language family is called something like the ''Laplandic-Lakelandic language family'' -> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Finno-Ugric_substrate while it's speakers are called ''Lakelanders'') and then languages of the Megalith Builders of Britain & Ireland maybe called the ''Newgrange-Henge language family'' (or ''Newgrangian-Hengian languages'') including the language of the Stonehenge builders of course plus the speakers may hypothetically called ''Hengians'' and ''Newgrangians'' for example ''Stonehengians'' for the Stonehenge builders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language /
Since it's unlikely that Inuits would inhabit Ireland, I think a Uralic people perhaps speaking an Ob-Ugric language (assuming that Ob-Ugric languages would exist at all in this alternate history timeline) would have settled in Ireland instead with them displacing or at least partly assimilating the ''Newgrangians'' & the remaining Western Hunter-Gatherers if they were still around by the Late Copper Age and Early Bronze Age. They are called the ''Obians'' and Ireland might be called the Obian Republic or ''Republic of Obia''.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hunter-Gatherer.
I wonder how this timeline affects the Late Bronze Age Collapse hmmm....perhaps the Urartians, the Kaska* people, Nubians, Elamites, Assyrians, or Georgians could be big winners in an alternate Post-Bronze Age Collapse Eastern Mediterranean since the Hurrian Kingdom (or Empire) of Mitanni would be absorbed by Assyria while the Kaskians would help weaken an alternate Hattian Kingdom in Anatolia. Perhaps Colchis might speak the Minoan language (or the Hattian language instead of Greek or Aramaic*) and Zan languages, while we might see a large, wealthy & powerful Kaskian Kingdom emerge in the Iron Age similar to how Lydia was like. Perhaps the Kaskians may survive till today in the 21st century as a distinct ethnolinguistic group and I believe they were a Caucasian-speaking people with a Northwest Caucasian language like the extinct Ubykh language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Caucasus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Caucasian_languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia. I assume the ''New Republic of Lapland'' is probably a Sami Country but I doubt it would have Lapland in the name since that's considered offensive by the Sami peoples. So I would just call it the ''Republic of Davvi'' or the Davvi Republic after the Northern Sami language. The title of Shah wouldn't be used so instead the title of ''Sunkir'' would be used
in an alternate Iranian Plateau (Elamite Plateau). Alternatively Sukkal and ''Sukkalmah'' could be used by others too. Who knows maybe ''Sunkkir of Sunkirs'' might be used as a title as well. So Nader Shah for example would be called ''Nader Sunkir'', hopefully he gets more recognition in Popular history as an underrated conqueror and basically the ''Iranian Napoleon''. I wonder how this timeline affects family structures and family systems tbh. I envision something like this happening (this is based on/derived from Emmanuel Todd's Pre-Modern/Pre-Industrial Traditional Family Systems map btw - ) (Extremely Speculative/Hypothetical Family Systems below =)

-> 1) Exogamous Communitarian Family structures would probably be widespread in this alternate Europe mainly among Uralic ethnic groups and Turkic peoples in Europe. It's possible that fusions of both Authoritarian and Exogamous Communitarian Family structures would occur in Central Europe creating a Mixed ''Stem Communitarian Family System''.

2) 'Authoritarian' Family systems I think would be predominant in Western Europe, Britain and Ireland. For example, Ireland could have a generally patrilineal authoritarian family structure with it being predominant in parts of Europe with more EEF (Early European Farmer)/Western Hunter-Gatherer admixture & ancestry. Other parts of the continent meanwhile may be more matrilineal however or perhaps even matriarchal like in OTL Greece assuming that the Minoans were matrilineal/maybe even matriarchal and assuming that they would expand into OTL mainland Greece too.

3) 'Asymmetric' Family structures with endogamous community-based joint families all over an alternate Indian Subcontinent with the addition of more avunculate marriages e.g. see South Indian Hindus' marriage practices. We could have even seen the Elamite (Iranian) Plateau develop a combination of both an endogamous communitarian family system and an asymmetric community family system with cousin marriages (called something like an ''Asymmetric Communitarian Family System'') idk.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob-Ugric_languages. I think a possibility is that there would be more* Munda Peoples and Newars in this world e.g. a possibility is that Bengal would become ''Mundaland'' basically because of their numerical advantage over the Khasi People which is why I didn't choose the Khasi people for whoever eventually settles in & controls Bengal, while OTL Nepal would be ''Newarland'' or (''Newartamti'' based on Haltamti, the name of Elam since I think Elamites would have shaped the history of Northern South Asia similarly to the Persians but maybe to an even greater extent.) In addition, since the Newar wouldn't have an indo-aryan ethnolinguistic component, a Dravidian ethnolinguistic component would be present instead for the unique cultural and linguistic community of the Newar People. If Islam still exists, then it would be pretty cool if at least one country became a Quranist-majority nation like say the Shaman Empire of Sapmi or the Khaganate of Leijona. In fact, it would be cool if a Protestant Reformation-like* Quranist Islamic Movement happens in this timeline's Europe e.g. Dvala, Northern European Countries, whatever Scotland is supposed to be in this timeline, Akilineq and Leijona becoming Quranist countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism
I wonder how the demographics of a country like Afghanistan could be shaped in this timeline; I think it could have looked something like this -> the country would have Turkic Uzbeks, Turkmen and Kirghiz people. Then there would be Brahuis, ''Marhasians'' (see the polity of Marhasi which is possibly the Jiroft Culture as well), Elamites probably (or an offshoot of them speaking a dialect of the Elamite language somewhat like Tajiks in our timeline), Baltis (a Tibetic ethnic group), Burusho people and maybe ''Harappans'' (the people or peoples of the IVC - Indus Valley Civilization'') & ''Oxusians'' (I assume these are the people or peoples of the BMAC - Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex that were pushed southwards by alternate hunnic expansions/invasions. This is also assuming that they survive for a long enough period of time and don't get assimilated into another group of people disappearing forever). On a side note, I think the Huns would be called something like ''Khitanic peoples'' since I assume they would be speaking alternate Para-Mongolic languages and form their own distinct ethnic groups that may survive into an alternate 21st century. Anyways, apart from them probably some Dravidian ethnolinguistic groups would form the rest of Afghanistan's population. Just a guess from but just like the Iranian peoples (or Iranic peoples) I think Elamoic ethnic groups would exist in this alternate world, I take ''Elamoic'' from the controversial Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis in linguistics. I assume that the ''Zayandeh River Culture'' people would be an Elamoic people like the Elamites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayandeh_River_Culture.
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I hope someone makes a map for how the Iranian or Elamite Plateau would look like and also how South Asia, Tibet and Afghanistan could look like as well.

These two videos are pretty useful and interesting for this discussion,
and
.
 
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World is going to look like very alien for us and it could go with many ways. Northern and Eastern Europe and possibility parts of Central Europe might are populated by Uralic peoples. Etruscans would populate Italy and perhaps some other places on Mediterranean region. Iberia perhaps is mix of Semitic and Basque speaking place. Rest of Europe is mostly just under guesses.

Iran might be divided between Turkic, Elamite and Semitic people. India probably would remain as Dravidian.
 
How would turkic people even exist at such time as the indo european migration and that happening has so many butterflies or even the map itself is so full of so many different things like how to the Magyars still happen when the pod is thousands of year's before them
 
How would turkic people even exist at such time as the indo european migration and that happening has so many butterflies or even the map itself is so full of so many different things like how to the Magyars still happen when the pod is thousands of year's before them
I am not too sure, I didn't make the map I just took this idea here for a discussion.
 
I think the broad strokes of European history would not be fundamentally different. Civilization would still likely arise around the Mediterranean, it would just be founded upon pre-IE peoples, like Iberian, Tyrrhenic, Pre-Greek, etc. Of course, one of these civilizations then expanding into a continent wide empire, much less embracing a monotheistic religion, is anything but guaranteed, but anything beyond this broadest stroke would probably depend on the creativity of whoever is writing.

It would be interesting if no Indo-Europeans means a longer lasting civilization nucleus on the Danube river, maybe even offering an alternate competitor to the Greek nucleus.
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-in-alternate-pre-and-ancient-history.430710/

There's this fascinating timeline I read a while back about that exact topic and I couldnt recommend it enough, the world is presented to you from the view of a teacher and his students analysing and theorising their own history based on what findings they have much like how we do in our world

Also while I was looking for it I also found this other one that also looks very interesting though I havent fully read it yet

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-an-alternate-indo-european-migration.450250/

Hope that helps you getting a feel of how it might have been
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-in-alternate-pre-and-ancient-history.430710/

There's this fascinating timeline I read a while back about that exact topic and I couldnt recommend it enough, the world is presented to you from the view of a teacher and his students analysing and theorising their own history based on what findings they have much like how we do in our world

Also while I was looking for it I also found this other one that also looks very interesting though I havent fully read it yet

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-an-alternate-indo-european-migration.450250/

Hope that helps you getting a feel of how it might have been
Thank you
 
So... how exactly do you plan for the Jews to end up in massive numbers around the Vistula and the Oder if there's no Roman Empire to provoke a diaspora?
Idk I don't think would be such a sovereign state for Jewish people in Europe would exist at all of course, you would have to ask the Map maker.
 
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So... how exactly do you plan for the Jews to end up in massive numbers around the Vistula and the Oder if there's no Roman Empire to provoke a diaspora?
or grecian unifier to provoke inviting the Romans since rome was only there because of the Diadochi or Hattusa to force Egypt back in the 18th dynasty or Persian empire for Alexander to conquer in one fell swoop. and no sassanid-roman war for the year of the elephant. Maybe @Sarufiyyun but their timeline has Hattusa with elishat and Marqos
 
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So... how exactly do you plan for the Jews to end up in massive numbers around the Vistula and the Oder if there's no Roman Empire to provoke a diaspora?
Idk I don't think would be such a sovereign state for Jewish people in Europe would exist at all of course, you would have to ask the Map maker.
From what Im seeing the map just magically remove the indo-european countries while keeping their borders...not the same but close to the OTL outline
 
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